Hua Quan 華拳 Question

[MarathonTmatt]

hua quan is just hong quan. arabs cant pronounce "ong", and some Chinese dialects also don't have "ong"

thanks, that makes sense.

[MarathonTmatt]

Greetings MarathonTmatt and welcome to the forum,

Would you please clarify something for me?

I read somewhere on the net that it was not Chao Lien Ho who introduced the 12 line Tan Tui to the Ching Wu curriculum. It was the father of Cai Long Yun. Is this true?

If so, do you maintain the stomping and shouting methods?


mickey

Aye- In my mind I was actually thinking of the form "Gong Li Quan" from the Chin Woo Assoc. when you said "Tan Tui." Hua basically covers the same techniques in some of it's basic sets as the Gong Li Quan set does, but also a slew of other techniques- Hua def. has its own distinct flavor. I always thought the Tan Tui routines were taken from the Cha Quan system? But anyway it is good to talk- whether or not Cai Gui Qin influenced Chin Woo in any way I personally do not know- but he was a famous martial artist from the same time period.
My teacher's school maintains stomping methods reminiscent of something like say, how they stomp in the Chen style of Tai Chi. I have trained alongside other students who were former Wah Lum students and they had to work on taking their stomping out for Hua Quan- the old long-fist manual says "practice boxing like a boat floating on water, running along smoothly for a thousand miles." Our style also has hard slapping, and as for shouting we try to control our breathing, conserve our energy and conceal or breathe- sort of like Tai Chi on steroids.

[zhua]

Huaquan has been around since about 420 AD, not the 7th or 8th century.



http://www.mauryskungfu.com/site/vie...FistKungFu.pml


First paragraph in, this is a legitimate source.

- Zac

[pazman]

First paragraph in, this is a legitimate source.

No it's not.

[David Jamieson]

Huaquan has been around since about 420 AD, not the 7th or 8th century.



http://www.mauryskungfu.com/site/vie...FistKungFu.pml


First paragraph in, this is a legitimate source.

- Zac

It jumps right out at you right away actually.

For instance:

"This style of kung fu dates back to the Former Song Dynasty - 420 AD (and many believe it may have been in existence long before that)."

Song Dynasty - 960CE until 1279CE


Leads one to question the accuracy.

[GeneChing]

...you should read Huaquan: In Search of the Roots of Modern Changquan By Emilio Alpanseque in our MAR+APR 2015 issue, currently on the newsstands (assuming you still have newsstands in your neighborhood )

[MarathonTmatt]

To weigh in. I don't want to sound like I know it all cause I don't, but-

the Former Song Dynasty is also known as the Liu Song Dynasty (420-479) (different from the later, more significant time period of the Song Dynasty). Wiki article here-

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liu_Song_dynasty

The legends/ historical record (blurry line, there) of the Cai family's ancestor Cai Mao is from the earlier Liu Song period. However it is unknown exactly what his martial arts training was like. the historical record has him slaying someone from an opposing noble family. Therefore he must have been a trained warrior. However, to say that his art was "HuaQuan" as we know it today just isn't the case. I think it is safe to say that he wasn't training the art of Huaquan or a long-fist style as we know it today. It does, however, tell us that the Cai family has a long martial arts tradition within their family (such is the case with many Chinese families).

To be fair, how different is the 1st generation of Chen style practitioners (of Chen Tai Chi) compared to the current generation in Chen Jiagou- the art wouldn't be quite the same.

To trace the modern roots of HuaQuan it should be more reasonable to look at how master's such as Cai Longyun, and his father, Cai GuiGin (and his grandfather, etc)- people within these era's, have developed the familie's art to how it is trained today.

Oh, and Mr. Gene Ching thanks for putting out the mag, I def. pick it up off the newstands. They still do exist in some cases.

My humble thoughts on all this. Don't get caught up in "i train a specific style that is 2,000 years old" or something because this is never the case. Everything ebbs and flows with time, and many changes can happen even within one short generation.

[Tainan Mantis]

First possible historical mention of Hua Quan is circa 1560 囮拳. "Hua" (or "E' or "you") Means the "Decoy Fist" in General Qi's New Book on Effective Training. Independent indexes of Ming era martial arts written during the Ming Dynasty fail to mention this style.

Bawang's statement that alternate characters for 囮 were used due to illiteracy is most likely accurate. As is recorded in several Ming era military manuals of the Ming this martial art, or another one similar to it, was used as an introductory training for new recruits in the military. Proficiency in this style allowed one to progress to staff and weapons.

[bawang]

no chinese kung fu is older early ming dynasty. if ur a exotic oriental martial art window shopper seeking only the most ancient archaic mysterious martial art do catch wrestling.

[David Jamieson]

To weigh in. I don't want to sound like I know it all cause I don't, but-

the Former Song Dynasty is also known as the Liu Song Dynasty (420-479) (different from the later, more significant time period of the Song Dynasty). Wiki article here-

This provides some clarification, but at that time there were multiple dynasties. I think it's 8 altogether in and around that time period.