Page 1 of 11 123 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 15 of 153

Thread: In response to T.D.O.

  1. #1

    In response to T.D.O.

    Quote Originally Posted by T.D.O View Post
    I once read an article by chu shong tin taking about finding the spherical shapes of wc techniques, I've always thought it was this movement (motion) he meant. Any chance of starting this topic? please
    It's a hard subject to broach through words alone. God knows I've tried! It's become somewhat obvious to me, with all the different "ideas" of WC floating around this forum, that a certain foundation is required to even grasp some of the concepts I try to express, the biggest being understanding on how the body, legs, abdomen, arms, are even interconnected. People, by nature, get tunnel vision and often don't ask why something is the way it is. Often people find something that works and focus on that. Often times that "thing" is a what I call a WC "trick". A manipulation founded in a knowledge or weakness, often predictable, in the practitioners system that they exploit. This doesn't make it true and more times than not becomes a "self-fulfilling prophecy" and added to the system as a result.

    It is human nature to want to maximize ones potential in any given subject. The problem isn't in the desire but in the short cuts to get there quicker. How many here do you think actually work on the foundation? How many here do you think get bored following the principles because they can't make them work when they want them to? How many people do you think understand what is developmental(99% of the system) and application(1%, just the structure and the punch in all its forms)? The theory of WC is flawless. The principles are sound. The concepts are solid. But why is it so hard for people to make it work?

    I offer a few things to think about.

    Yes, your comment about TST is not too far off. The structural framework is a rotation of forces much more along the lines of a circle or spiral within the context of a triangle "base". There are MANY things going on there and the term 'go with the flow' is an understatement. Think of a balloon floating freely against a movable wall. The wall being your body as a whole. The balloon being your arms and abdomen. If you press dead center on that balloon surely it will compress and if the wall is dead center behind that ballon surely it will move back.

    What good WC structure does is take this concept to another level. What happens when that balloon isn't pressed center? It rolls with the compression. What comes forward despite the compression? The balloon. What happens if the balloon is pressed off center but the wall rotates forward to the side of the force? It rolls while staying hinged to the wall due to opposing forces. i.e. facing. What comes forward towards the thing pressing it? The balloon.

    This concept, in combination, is WC structure in motion. The post I made earlier about the spiraling you'll notice of the elbow, if done correctly, along with the ability to switch between active and passive facilitates this concept in the place of the balloon. The "bracing" footwork along with distance facilitates the place of the wall. The force coming in quite literally is showing you where to hit when your path is obstructed and naturally creates a structure where your body is balanced allowing you to deliver force to your structural limit.

    This "positioning" is not made intentionally but is a response through adjustment. This positioning is the result of foundational work drilled over and over and over again.....and a good teacher.

    Now I don't want anyone to think WC is as simple as that. It's not. There's many other elements involved such as asking hands, timing, kicks, footwork to and fro, multiple opponent footwork, etc. It's a complete system. But the core structure, the reason EVERYTHING else exists and why, is based upon allowing this structural concept to exist...
    Last edited by WC1277; 07-16-2013 at 09:43 PM.

  2. #2
    Thats really helpful. Thanks.

  3. #3
    There are some seminar videos (one with a runntime of 2hrs) where Chu Shong Tin focuses on finding and understanding 'circles' in wing chun. The best example of these videos is titled 'Wing Chun Course, Siu Nim Tao, October 1998, Chu Shong Tin'; it comes in two parts each around 190 MB.

    For those more experienced with the seminar video cited above, I highly recommend giving this video on the 'viking round shield', http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=610_1370556449,
    a watch. I found it very enlightening in terms of wing chun when one recalls what Chu Shong Tin says about circles.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Scotland
    Posts
    226

    Talking

    WC1277 Much appreciated



    Your analogies are madder than mine, still trying to figure it out lol


    This "positioning" is not made intentionally but is a response through adjustment. This positioning is the result of foundational work drilled over and over and over again.....and a good teacher.
    Had 2 good teachers, sadly 1 now. Structure work was how he started every class, from chi kung to wing chun and back again every class. Destroying structure was one of his favourites and one of mine which in turn, made me more interested in my own structure. So no need to worry, i've put a lot of thought and effort in to that

    No doubt i'll be back with questions, after a re-read and a think


    Thank you

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Scotland
    Posts
    226
    Quote Originally Posted by Paddington View Post
    There are some seminar videos (one with a runntime of 2hrs) where Chu Shong Tin focuses on finding and understanding 'circles' in wing chun. The best example of these videos is titled 'Wing Chun Course, Siu Nim Tao, October 1998, Chu Shong Tin'; it comes in two parts each around 190 MB.

    For those more experienced with the seminar video cited above, I highly recommend giving this video on the 'viking round shield', http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=610_1370556449,
    a watch. I found it very enlightening in terms of wing chun when one recalls what Chu Shong Tin says about circles.
    I'll check it out thanks

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Paddington View Post
    For those more experienced with the seminar video cited above, I highly recommend giving this video on the 'viking round shield', http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=610_1370556449,
    a watch. I found it very enlightening in terms of wing chun when one recalls what Chu Shong Tin says about circles.
    That is an excellent video Paddington. If one watches the whole thing through to gain context, there are definitely correlations to some WC concepts and principles.

    Thanks for sharing!

  7. #7
    FYI T.D.O

    I've been watching some TST videos and I think it's safe to say that we have different ideas. It appears that TST focuses much more on rebounding force such as tai chi or the kind of stuff Hendrik tries to explain. While there may be microcosms of correlation, the concept I "tried" to explain above has to do with redirecting force in motion PAST our "shield"(no pun intended Paddinton). We're not interested in "receiving force" to return, only redirecting.

    Watch that video Paddington posted. The way the shield "rotates" can give you an idea...
    Last edited by WC1277; 07-18-2013 at 01:26 AM.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by WC1277 View Post
    That is an excellent video Paddington. If one watches the whole thing through to gain context, there are definitely correlations to some WC concepts and principles.

    Thanks for sharing!
    No problem, I am glad to share! I could link the other two videos but I think it not wise to do so on these boards.

    Quote Originally Posted by WC1277 View Post
    FYI T.D.O
    [...]
    Watch that video Paddington posted. The way the shield rotates can give you an idea...
    In the Chu Shong Tin seminar I cite CST uses a large cane circle to show structure and how an opponents energy can be dispersed and rolled away. With that prop CST makes it very easy to imagine a shield and how that has been used in a combat effective way historically; i.e. contact at the edge rather than on the face of the circle.
    Last edited by Paddington; 07-18-2013 at 01:29 AM.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Paddington View Post
    In the Chu Shong Tin seminar I cite CST uses a large cane circle to show structure and how an opponents energy can be dispersed and rolled away. With that prop CST makes it very easy to imagine a shield and how that has been used in a combat effective way historically; i.e. contact at the edge rather than on the face of the circle.
    He makes some interesting points but I take issue with more than I agree with. Such as not taking into consideration the attacking line, crossing over the line while losing facing, and no implementation of footwork to retain simultaneous "redirect" and "attack" balance. There's many ways to redirect force but we only have two arms and two legs. It's not physically possible to rotate one shoulder forward to redirect, while hitting with the other, as it's rotation is on the backside. If you're going to redirect a force with regards to fighting, it MUST create a balance where the hitting side is rotating forward

    I do like that "viking shield" video very much however, and no disrespect intended, but find more correlations in there.

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    Rockville, MD
    Posts
    2,662
    It's not physically possible to rotate one shoulder forward to redirect, while hitting with the other, as it's rotation is on the backside. If you're going to redirect a force with regards to fighting, it MUST create a balance where the hitting side is rotating forward

    ----Just a comment: I don't think that is an accurate statement. There is more than one way to power a strike. Rotational force is one way, but another way is translational force. So one could very well being rotating the leading shoulder forward to redirect (say..doing a Bong Sao), while stepping into the opponent to power a punch from the rear hand. I've seen Leung Ting demo this on video several times. Of course, I think the punch would be relatively weak. But it is possible. That would be the equivalent of our friend Roland defending with the edge of the shield by shoving it forward and across the centerline while striking from above downward just past the edge of the shield with the sword hand. I've seen him do that.

    BTW...I liked your beach ball analogy.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by KPM View Post
    It's not physically possible to rotate one shoulder forward to redirect, while hitting with the other, as it's rotation is on the backside. If you're going to redirect a force with regards to fighting, it MUST create a balance where the hitting side is rotating forward

    ----Just a comment: I don't think that is an accurate statement. There is more than one way to power a strike. Rotational force is one way, but another way is translational force. So one could very well being rotating the leading shoulder forward to redirect (say..doing a Bong Sao), while stepping into the opponent to power a punch from the rear hand. I've seen Leung Ting demo this on video several times. Of course, I think the punch would be relatively weak. But it is possible. That would be the equivalent of our friend Roland defending with the edge of the shield by shoving it forward and across the centerline while striking from above downward just past the edge of the shield with the sword hand. I've seen him do that.

    BTW...I liked your beach ball analogy.
    Wc1277 is confirming a basic but HUGE difference in thinking. Same with LT.
    SLT teaches FACING for a reason, we have to utilize the structural facing alignment and legs to power the facing arms. Using similar forces we use in the pole, we use the physics ( sorry tc101 ) of kinetic transfer of energy exactly like Newons Cradle.
    Speed of parrying actions creates more force, the alignment or discharge point, is the centerline. We can angle and move this facing idea so we don't lose force in one arm rotating to defend or strike at the shoulders. We also don't open gates to be hit back ( if following vt thinking ) so attack and defense ARE without making the same rotational errors of 'humans'. We only turn to FACE the opponent. The MYJ ( dummy ) develops ging lik, facing, lateral attacking to cut the way....
    Last edited by k gledhill; 07-18-2013 at 04:18 AM.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by KPM View Post
    [...] That would be the equivalent of our friend Roland defending with the edge of the shield by shoving it forward and across the centerline while striking from above downward just past the edge of the shield with the sword hand. I've seen him do that.
    [...]
    I am very envious of you if it is the case you have seen those guys in person. There are lots of little gems in the viking shield segment; the 'tan sau' arm shape that utilizes the flat of the shield and disperses force to the ground for example.

  13. #13
    Great clip, thanks and appreciate!


    Quote Originally Posted by Paddington View Post
    There are some seminar videos (one with a runntime of 2hrs) where Chu Shong Tin focuses on finding and understanding 'circles' in wing chun. The best example of these videos is titled 'Wing Chun Course, Siu Nim Tao, October 1998, Chu Shong Tin'; it comes in two parts each around 190 MB.

    For those more experienced with the seminar video cited above, I highly recommend giving this video on the 'viking round shield', http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=610_1370556449,
    a watch. I found it very enlightening in terms of wing chun when one recalls what Chu Shong Tin says about circles.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by k gledhill View Post
    Wc1277 is confirming a basic but HUGE difference in thinking. Same with LT.
    SLT teaches FACING for a reason, we have to utilize the structural facing alignment and legs to power the facing arms. Using similar forces we use in the pole, we use the physics ( sorry tc101 ) of kinetic transfer of energy exactly like Newons Cradle.
    Speed of parrying actions creates more force, the alignment or discharge point, is the centerline. We can angle and move this facing idea so we don't lose force in one arm rotating to defend or strike at the shoulders. We also don't open gates to be hit back ( if following vt thinking ) so attack and defense ARE without making the same rotational errors of 'humans'. We only turn to FACE the opponent. The MYJ ( dummy ) develops ging lik, facing, lateral attacking to cut the way....
    Yeah, ok Kevin...

    Even your guys rotate their shoulders. Often against the principle. Not interested in arm power alone here...

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by KPM View Post
    It's not physically possible to rotate one shoulder forward to redirect, while hitting with the other, as it's rotation is on the backside. If you're going to redirect a force with regards to fighting, it MUST create a balance where the hitting side is rotating forward

    ----Just a comment: I don't think that is an accurate statement. There is more than one way to power a strike. Rotational force is one way, but another way is translational force. So one could very well being rotating the leading shoulder forward to redirect (say..doing a Bong Sao), while stepping into the opponent to power a punch from the rear hand. I've seen Leung Ting demo this on video several times. Of course, I think the punch would be relatively weak. But it is possible. That would be the equivalent of our friend Roland defending with the edge of the shield by shoving it forward and across the centerline while striking from above downward just past the edge of the shield with the sword hand. I've seen him do that.

    BTW...I liked your beach ball analogy.
    There are a few exceptions that are highly unlikely KPM such as the infamous both people punch at the same time to the center and the one on the inside wins.

    I think you got your answer within your own response. The punch won't be powerful. "Relatively weak", your words.

    BTW, when Roland does it with the shield, he has a sword...

    Even a Pak punch has the rotation with the punching side coming forward.
    Last edited by WC1277; 07-18-2013 at 09:31 AM.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •