Philipp Bayer Ving Tsun (explained?)

[Vajramusti]

In fact as BPWT has no immediate intention to go to PB for a looksy............

SLT - trains the stance and the elbow

Wall Bag - trains elbow control, short punching distances, timing, precision

Dahn Chi Sau - Develop the elbow

Chum Kiu - Develops the, kick, step, pivot, the easiest way for fighting, balance, syncronicity (specifically Bong/Wu - Kwan Sau)

Muk Jong - Improves "shock force", precision, timing, elbow, balance, cut the way, limits of actions, syncronicity, chum kiu

Bil Jee - How to cut ones losses

Luk Dim Boon Kwan - Improves force, punching power and precision, improved foot speed, timing.

Baat Cham Do - Awareness of danger, Improved foot speed and evasion tactics. How to fight any other weapon (expect firearms)

Poon Sau - force improvement, lat sau jik chung, punching power.

Seung Ma/Toi Ma - Balance, structure, step, alignment, force

Laap Sau - improve the elbow, syncronicity of punch/jut sau, rotation of bong sau, smooth changes, balance, cut the way

Chi Sau/Gor Sau/Sparring - uses all the above.

There you go. Basic thinking. Now you know everything.

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Fairly basic and general- does not make PB unique.. it's the repeated selling of PB by several people on this forum and the put downs that is tiresome and counterproductive.

[k gledhill]

As a vt student it was also how philipp clarified certain aspects of centerline and interception using wu sin aka mindless interaction. Because of certain angles and recycling, we can sustain attacking for the "9 out of 10 seconds " idea. If one keeps hands on the centerline we offer ourselves thinking what side to intercept. That would induce thinking and hesitation.
Another major missing piece for me was the angling to certain positions, using the chi sao as the conditioning response method for right footwork etc. many students falter when charged and make boxers pivots instead of angles with a sustained line of force that enables us to keep making counter angles and striking counters together at the right distances with balance, another idea taken from knives.

[BPWT]

I appreciate why you would be interested, but I am reluctant to make such a post. First, my personal evolution in Ving Tsun, including transitioning to Phillip's way, is just that. My personal thing.

Another thought.....It always strikes me as odd, when people see Philipp as some kind of Ving Tsun commodity.....Some seem to feel, they can go and "have a go" with him to see how you like it, or use him to test or measure yourself, or get a piece of him or something?.... Whats in it for Philipp?

Fair enough - it is indeed a person thing, and a personal art in many ways. But thanks for sharing what you did.

Regarding a commodity - I suppose in some sense all people who teach publicly become this. There is really nothing in it for Philipp, other than sharing (which he can choose to do or not). Myself, I would just be interested to see what he does - nothing to do with using him as a measure or test. Just interesting to see someone who many rate highly.

[k gledhill]

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Fairly basic and general- does not make PB unique.. it's the repeated selling of PB by several people on this forum and the put downs that is tiresome and counterproductive.

Joy your air of being able to understand what GH wrote just highlights your arrogant ignorance. It's been mentioned before by others not just me.

[BPWT]

What other functions?

I've never really liked the idea that the BT form is about emergency actions, etc... though some of what is in the form certainly has aspects of this.

In terms of other functions (from a WT perspective):

The BT form has different body methods for getting power into the strikes (compared to SNT and CK methods and functions).

The quality/type of power is different (more whipping power, if that makes sense) - compared to SNT and CK methods/functions.

The tactics used in striking are different (the 'how' and the 'where'), especially in relation to the parts of your arm you are using (compared to SNT and CK methods/functions).

The timing (and to some extent the nature) of the bridging is different, when compared to SNT and CK level material.

And no doubt much more but this is surely not unique to the WT way of things, and I am sure that your lineage has much of the same. Or perhaps much of a slightly different.

[BPWT]

As a vt student it was also how philipp clarified certain aspects of centerline and interception using wu sin aka mindless interaction. Because of certain angles and recycling, we can sustain attacking for the "9 out of 10 seconds " idea. If one keeps hands on the centerline we offer ourselves thinking what side to intercept. That would induce thinking and hesitation.
Another major missing piece for me was the angling to certain positions, using the chi sao as the conditioning response method for right footwork etc. many students falter when charged and make boxers pivots instead of angles with a sustained line of force that enables us to keep making counter angles and striking counters together at the right distances with balance, another idea taken from knives.

Thanks, Kevin. That is what I was hoping for - concrete info that helps me form a somewhat better picture.

[Vajramusti]

Joy your air of being able to understand what GH wrote just highlights your arrogant ignorance. It's been mentioned before by others not just me.

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Your opinions really bother me- not

[BPWT]

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Your opinions really bother me- not

Joy, why not ask the guys a question, rather than simply pan what one of the wrote as a response?



Or if you have no interest in PB and what these guys learn, then why post at all?

[Vajramusti]

Joy your air of being able to understand what GH wrote just highlights your arrogant ignorance. It's been mentioned before by others not just me.

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You were a "true believer" in one line-now you are a "true believer" in another line- well known behavioral pathology

[Graham H]

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Fairly basic and general- does not make PB unique.. it's the repeated selling of PB by several people on this forum and the put downs that is tiresome and counterproductive.

It was meant to be basic Joy. I knew you would jump on it. The components of which are better explained in more depth in person.

When these components are explained its easy to see where people have gone wrong and why?

[Graham H]

I've never really liked the idea that the BT form is about emergency actions, etc... though some of what is in the form certainly has aspects of this.

I don't like using the term "emergency actions" either.

In terms of other functions (from a WT perspective):

The BT form has different body methods for getting power into the strikes (compared to SNT and CK methods and functions).

Completely incorrect IMO. So you are saying that up until BJ you cannot get power into strikes or that they are less powerful until you reach this stage?

The quality/type of power is different (more whipping power, if that makes sense) - compared to SNT and CK methods/functions.

I could not disagree with that more

The tactics used in striking are different (the 'how' and the 'where'), especially in relation to the parts of your arm you are using (compared to SNT and CK methods/functions).

Different? How? Different parts of your arm?

The timing (and to some extent the nature) of the bridging is different, when compared to SNT and CK level material.

Bridging? Bridging what? You mean making arm contact? Absolute rubbish. Ving Tsun is NOT about making bridges with arms and manipulating them about.

And no doubt much more but this is surely not unique to the WT way of things, and I am sure that your lineage has much of the same. Or perhaps much of a slightly different.

Your ideas are not unique to WT but couldn't be further away from what I practice which brings us back to the original point ironically.

[Graham H]

Yes, it was amazing and enlightening to have Philipp explain the whole system the way he did, and to experience his Ving Tsun first hand for the first time! (which no words could do justice to). But, it was in some ways, a difficult and even upsetting experience, to realise I had been going the wrong way for so long.

Good post T

I was furious as I had come from another "well recognized" system of WSLVT!

Cheated, upset and very disappointed. I could have spent all those hours and heap of money on myself instead of lining the pockets of a charlatan

[Graham H]

Joy your air of being able to understand what GH wrote just highlights your arrogant ignorance. It's been mentioned before by others not just me.

Agree! It's funny that Joy shows classic signs of what he spends all his time accusing us of!

[k gledhill]

Joy, why not ask the guys a question, rather than simply pan what one of the wrote as a response?



Or if you have no interest in PB and what these guys learn, then why post at all?

Welcome to Joys world !

[k gledhill]

I appreciate why you would be interested, but I am reluctant to make such a post.

First, my personal evolution in Ving Tsun, including transitioning to Phillip's way, is just that. My personal thing.

Secondly, I wouldn't want to unnecessarily cause offence to my previous (or other) lineages..... That is hard to avoid when this subject arises.

Third, making a post on the virtues of Philipp Bayer on this board is like a red rag to a bull to some. Seems a number of people here would take exception to it...
Post about PB......put on tin helmet,....take cover!

Lastly, I don't think I could do justice to my first experience with Philipp Bayer in words.

I will say, that for me, it wasn't all one big wonderful revelation. Oh no. When Philipp explained certain things, I felt like you do when you almost knew the answer, but didn't.
There was a lot of..."doh!...I should have known that!" or "Of course it is!...Duh!".
Yes, it was amazing and enlightening to have Philipp explain the whole system the way he did, and to experience his Ving Tsun first hand for the first time! (which no words could do justice to). But, it was in some ways, a difficult and even upsetting experience, to realise I had been going the wrong way for so long.
The first year after meeting Philipp was very difficult for me and the guys I was teaching.

Another thought.....It always strikes me as odd, when people see Philipp as some kind of Ving Tsun commodity.....Some seem to feel, they can go and "have a go" with him to see how you like it, or use him to test or measure yourself, or get a piece of him or something?.... Whats in it for Philipp?

If you are genuinely interested in learning what Philipp has to teach, its not difficult to contact him or someone else in the VTKFAE.

Indeed it is both hard to realize that ones ideas have been errors. But better late than never ; )