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Thread: Application Observation

  1. #1

    Application Observation

    I've recently been doing a lot of no gi judo. Something that I've discovered is that in that environment, the traditional mantis techniques have time to develop. I think that when you ad the element of a scrum, a real knock down drag down in close fight, the old techniques are more applicable.

    I've found the feel to be different than when I dabbled in san shou in the 90's because I find that it's hard to apply technique in a mostly striking environment. I think when you ad that element of grappling, you get that "bridge" and time that's needed to execute a lot of the techniques and strategies.

    Anybody else have similar experiences?

  2. #2

    similar experience

    Quote Originally Posted by MightyB View Post
    I've recently been doing a lot of no gi judo. Something that I've discovered is that in that environment, the traditional mantis techniques have time to develop. I think that when you ad the element of a scrum, a real knock down drag down in close fight, the old techniques are more applicable.

    I've found the feel to be different than when I dabbled in san shou in the 90's because I find that it's hard to apply technique in a mostly striking environment. I think when you ad that element of grappling, you get that "bridge" and time that's needed to execute a lot of the techniques and strategies.

    Anybody else have similar experiences?
    Everything that is done from a standing position can be done in the air or on the ground. The position is the same in all three tiers, only implemented at a different tier level. This sounds like a great validation of your technique. This is a wonderful discovery and I wish you all the best with this type of training.
    SKM

  3. #3
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    no gi judo?

    I am not familiar with this sport. But yes, it would follow that joint locking would be handy in such an instance where there is no textile to grab and lurch.

    keep your fingernails and hair short! (for anything no gi)
    Kung Fu is good for you.

  4. #4
    We mainly do stand up. We're throwers. So I'm using applications and set ups in close quarters stand up. When you ad grappling, you get a lot of wrist ties, body locks, and over under hooks - so you're constantly "bridging". Ad strikes and then you get a whole new dynamic, but I'm thinking techs and traps were primarily for knock down drag out fighting, and you can't get the same dynamic from striking only - it's just too fast, too "pattycake" to do bridges, locks, and traps.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by David Jamieson View Post
    no gi judo?

    I am not familiar with this sport. But yes, it would follow that joint locking would be handy in such an instance where there is no textile to grab and lurch.

    keep your fingernails and hair short! (for anything no gi)
    It's nothing official, I just said "hey, lets do our judo without the gi-s" and the guys loved it. Then we freed up for more newaza/illegal techniques, but we still stop on a solid ippon throw.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MightyB View Post
    I've recently been doing a lot of no gi judo. Something that I've discovered is that in that environment, the traditional mantis techniques have time to develop. I think that when you ad the element of a scrum, a real knock down drag down in close fight, the old techniques are more applicable.

    I've found the feel to be different than when I dabbled in san shou in the 90's because I find that it's hard to apply technique in a mostly striking environment. I think when you ad that element of grappling, you get that "bridge" and time that's needed to execute a lot of the techniques and strategies.

    Anybody else have similar experiences?
    Good that you are finding out the right context for making use of your techniques.

    A lot of people don't actively explore, and never figure it out.

    Then they go around saying TCMA doesn't work.

    Even some very advanced people on this board miss out on some detail aspects which make a big difference in useability.
    Last edited by -N-; 03-15-2013 at 08:37 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MightyB View Post
    I've recently been doing a lot of no gi judo. Something that I've discovered is that in that environment, the traditional mantis techniques have time to develop. ... I find that it's hard to apply technique in a mostly striking environment.
    The mantis hook can be used as the "arm guiding".

    You can use a very strong punch to set up an effortless throw. A strong punch will force your opponent to lean his body backward. That will give you some opportunity. Here is one example.

    - Both you and your opponent have right side forward.
    - You deliever a right groin kick.
    - When you land your right foot, you use left hand to parry your opponent's leading right wrist, and right "punch at his face as fast/hard as you can".
    - When he leans his bady back (this is what you want), and uses his left hand to parry your right punch, you pull your punch back (his left block will just block the thin air).
    - When his right arm spin with your left parry arm, you slide your left arm along with his right arm.
    - You then move your right hand above his left parring arm and reach to his throat.
    - Your left arm wrap around his right upper arm.
    - Your right leg make a curve and move behind his right leading leg, and
    - use "front cut (Osoto Gari)" to take him down.

    Since in SC or Judo game the punch is not allowed, to apply "front cut (Osoto Gari)" is much harder. Also to catch your opponent's kicking leg (your opponent gives that to you) is much easier than to shoot in and grab your opponent's leading leg (you have to get it).
    Last edited by YouKnowWho; 03-15-2013 at 10:33 AM.
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    Nice sequence.

    Forearm/elbow to face/neck is good too, instead of just hand.

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    Quote Originally Posted by -N- View Post
    Nice sequence.

    Forearm/elbow to face/neck is good too, instead of just hand.
    Agree! Head lock is good at that moment too.

    http://imageshack.us/a/img215/7958/canebundle.jpg
    Last edited by YouKnowWho; 03-15-2013 at 04:59 PM.
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  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by MightyB View Post
    I think when you ad that element of grappling, you get that "bridge" and time that's needed to execute a lot of the techniques and strategies.
    Funny how things start to make sense when you do a lot of sparring or grappling...
    Quote Originally Posted by YouKnowWho View Post
    This is 100% TCMA principle. It may be used in non-TCMA also. Since I did learn it from TCMA, I have to say it's TCMA principle.
    Quote Originally Posted by YouKnowWho View Post
    We should not use "TCMA is more than combat" as excuse for not "evolving".

    You can have Kung Fu in cooking, it really has nothing to do with fighting!

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    Quote Originally Posted by MightyB View Post
    no gi judo.
    The major difference between gi and no-gi is the "pulling". In no-gi, you have to find different way to do your pulling. For example, instead of pulling with the upper collar grip, you pull behind your opponent's neck instead. It's so funny that the MT "double neck tie" in SC is called "mantis arms".
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    Quote Originally Posted by YouKnowWho View Post
    Agree! Head lock is good at that moment too.

    http://imageshack.us/a/img215/7958/canebundle.jpg
    Quote Originally Posted by YouKnowWho View Post
    - When he leans his bady back (this is what you want), and uses his left hand to parry your right punch, you pull your punch back (his left block will just block the thin air).
    Another way is don't pull back. Keep going in but yield and slip so the parry doesn't control your force. I like this method of continuous attacking pressure.

    Then snap the forearm into the face. You can grab the collar while doing this if you like. Turn it into a paper cutter choke if you take him down and follow. Or just smash his head into the ground.

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    Quote Originally Posted by -N- View Post
    Another way is don't pull back. Keep going in but yield and slip so the parry doesn't control your force.
    If your opponent blocks your right forearm, you can borrow your opponent's left hand parrying force, bend at your right elbow joint and smash your right elbow over his left blocking arm and onto his face. You can also use mantis Gua (comb hair), knock away his left blocking arm (force against force), and still move in.

    Since this entering strategy combo is the ACSCA 1st degree black belt testing requirement, most students have spend a great deal amount of time in this combo with many different modifications.
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    Quote Originally Posted by YouKnowWho View Post
    If your opponent blocks your right forearm, you can borrow your opponent's left hand parrying force, bend at your right elbow joint and smash your right elbow over his left blocking arm and onto his face.
    Yep. That would my preference. Then you are close enough for kao da with torso and a hard takedown.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by YouKnowWho View Post
    The mantis hook can be used as the "arm guiding.
    For us, we frequently use forearm contact and guiding to serve the same purpose as mantis hook. Especially when we have gloves. And also when we want to close in tight.

    This is using the theory but favoring our preference for working a closer range than shown literally in the classical methods.

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