The benefits from internal arts come from...

[IronFist]

Poll coming. You may choose all the answers that are applicable.

Let me explain these choices. So if you think the benefit from internal martial arts comes from specific movements combined with specific breathing techniques, then you would choose options 1 and 2.

If you think the benefit from internal martial arts comes from the thought process combined with general movements that don't have to be exact, you would choose options 3 and 4.

I've heard some people say that internal martial arts stuff has to be exact or it may be ineffective or even harmful. Sometimes when they say this they are referring to the movement, sometimes to the breathing, and sometimes to both. I've also heard people say it doesn't matter, you can't really do it wrong, so I'm curious what this forum thinks.

[bawang]

r u talking about qi meditation

[Robinhood]

You need a column for none of the above choices.

[Scott R. Brown]

Also, how are you defining "benefit"?

1) Self-Defense
2) Competive Combat
3) Health
4) Developing Chi inorder to perform magic?
5) etc.

[David Jamieson]

Also, how are you defining "benefit"?

1) Self-Defense
2) Competive Combat
3) Health
4) Developing Chi inorder to perform magic?
5) etc.

To be fair, he doesn't know because he doesn't likely study internal martial arts and judging by his poll, doesn't have much of a grasp on what they are about.

Ironfist, you probably would have been better off asking the question instead of making a poll and you would have benefited by asking internal practitioners what they felt the benefits of practicing their arts are.

As opposed to trying to lead the answers from a place of ignorance.

[Empty_Cup]

To be fair, he doesn't know because he doesn't likely study internal martial arts and judging by his poll, doesn't have much of a grasp on what they are about.

Ironfist, you probably would have been better off asking the question instead of making a poll and you would have benefited by asking internal practitioners what they felt the benefits of practicing their arts are.

As opposed to trying to lead the answers from a place of ignorance.

I agree with this but likely the data will come back inconclusive. This seems like a good enough way to get the discussion started.

[IronFist]

Also, how are you defining "benefit"?

1) Self-Defense
2) Competive Combat
3) Health
4) Developing Chi inorder to perform magic?
5) etc.

The reason they practice internal arts.

[IronFist]

To be fair, he doesn't know because he doesn't likely study internal martial arts and judging by his poll, doesn't have much of a grasp on what they are about.

Ironfist, you probably would have been better off asking the question instead of making a poll and you would have benefited by asking internal practitioners what they felt the benefits of practicing their arts are.

As opposed to trying to lead the answers from a place of ignorance.

If you disagree with all my poll choices you can post your own answers instead.

I'm not sure what's wrong with my poll choices, though, and I thought I explained them in the first post. You've got movement, breathing, and intent. You can pick the one(s) that are responsible for the changes that come from practicing internal arts that would not come if internal arts were not practiced.

If internal arts are just exercise whose benefits come from the fact that you are doing something (vs. doing nothing), then choose general movements.

If the benefits of internal arts come from specific movements that require being done in a specific way such that it is possible to do them incorrectly and get either no benefit or actually receive harm to yourself, then choose specific movement. An example of this would be "the exercise calls for extending your arm outward for this movement, but if instead you extend your arm upward, you will receive no benefit and/or detriment.

If it's just that internal arts encourage deep breathing which is healthy, then choose general breathing.

If the benefits from internal arts come from specific breathing techniques that require being done in a specific way such that it is possible to do them incorrectly and get either no benefit or actually receive harm to yourself, then choose specific breathing. An example of this would be "this part calls for exhaling 50% of the air in your lungs, but if you accidentally exhale 25% or 75% you will receive no benefit and/or detriment."

Sometimes the breathing and physical movements are supposed to be done together. In this case you can choose both poll options. Some people say these need to be done in a specific way, an example would be "this movement requires exhaling as you extend your arms outward, parallel to the ground. If instead you extend them upward, or if you inhale as you extend your arms rather than exhaling, you will receive no benefit and/or detriment."

If the mental component (such as intent, visualization, etc.) is important, then choose that option. If it is not important, then do not choose that option.

Half the internal stuff I've seen suggests that doing internal arts wrong can range from doing nothing to actually being bad for you. Is that because of the movements, the breathing, or the stuff that goes on in your head?

There are no other components besides movement, breath, and intent.

Therefore my poll is complete and accurate, but you are still welcome to add your own.

What else is there? Facing the right direction? Doing it at exactly the same time every day? I've heard those, too.

[Robinhood]

If you disagree with all my poll choices you can post your own answers instead.

I'm not sure what's wrong with my poll choices, though, and I thought I explained them in the first post. You've got movement, breathing, and intent. You can pick the one(s) that are responsible for the changes that come from practicing internal arts that would not come if internal arts were not practiced.

If internal arts are just exercise whose benefits come from the fact that you are doing something (vs. doing nothing), then choose general movements.

If the benefits of internal arts come from specific movements that require being done in a specific way such that it is possible to do them incorrectly and get either no benefit or actually receive harm to yourself, then choose specific movement. An example of this would be "the exercise calls for extending your arm outward for this movement, but if instead you extend your arm upward, you will receive no benefit and/or detriment.

If it's just that internal arts encourage deep breathing which is healthy, then choose general breathing.

If the benefits from internal arts come from specific breathing techniques that require being done in a specific way such that it is possible to do them incorrectly and get either no benefit or actually receive harm to yourself, then choose specific breathing. An example of this would be "this part calls for exhaling 50% of the air in your lungs, but if you accidentally exhale 25% or 75% you will receive no benefit and/or detriment."

Sometimes the breathing and physical movements are supposed to be done together. In this case you can choose both poll options. Some people say these need to be done in a specific way, an example would be "this movement requires exhaling as you extend your arms outward, parallel to the ground. If instead you extend them upward, or if you inhale as you extend your arms rather than exhaling, you will receive no benefit and/or detriment."

If the mental component (such as intent, visualization, etc.) is important, then choose that option. If it is not important, then do not choose that option.

Half the internal stuff I've seen suggests that doing internal arts wrong can range from doing nothing to actually being bad for you. Is that because of the movements, the breathing, or the stuff that goes on in your head?

There are no other components besides movement, breath, and intent.

Therefore my poll is complete and accurate, but you are still welcome to add your own.

What else is there? Facing the right direction? Doing it at exactly the same time every day? I've heard those, too.

Maybe if you read a book on the subject, you might have a little better perspective on what it takes .

Lots of good books out there on "chi"., which might be relevant.

[IronFist]

as far as harming urself - well, that's possible, e.g. - doing sustained valsalva's while bending forward,

I understand how valsavlas can be dangerous in certain situations. I wasn't aware that the valsalva maneuver was done in internal arts, though. I've seen some tensing and momentary breath holding followed immediately by a tensed "tssss" but never heard of an actual sustained valsalva performed in the internal arts.

being "macho" about ur training,

Agreed with that one, too.

tc.; u can also get carried away abit w the visualization stuff; and many of these movements jazz up sympathetics or engage parasympathetics, so if u over do it u can get various autonomic effects, like vaso-vagal response, which u don't really want...

Can you please elaborate on that a bit?

[IronFist]

Maybe if you read a book on the subject, you might have a little better perspective on what it takes .

Lots of good books out there on "chi"., which might be relevant.

Not sure if your post is serious or not. I've read plenty of books on internal martial arts and "chi."

Your initial comment was for "none of the above choices."

What about my choices is wrong? Are you saying the benefit of internal arts has nothing to do with the movement or breathing?

[Robinhood]

Not sure if your post is serious or not. I've read plenty of books on internal martial arts and "chi."

Your initial comment was for "none of the above choices."

What about my choices is wrong? Are you saying the benefit of internal arts has nothing to do with the movement or breathing?

Internal is not the benefit of doing one thing right, it is a state that is developed from a certain training method.

If we looked at growing a tree, could we say just add the sun a tree will appear , or just have water and a tree will appear ....etc .

The tree starts from a seed, needs soil, water, then sun, and with the proper amounts of each the tree will keep growing, internal is same kind of process , starts and is developed over time with a balance of different things.

[CicadaL9H]

The benifits of internal kung-fu, as far as health and energy, besides some of the categories you listed, come from the "transformation" of Jing to Chi, and Chi to Shen. This is the classic formula. It is not mystical, think of it from a physiological point of veiw (I'm going to put this very simply and bluntly, I know it is multi-faceted and cant really be summed up in a paragraph): Semen (jing) is preserved in the body for at least a hundred days ("the Foundation"). It is gradually absorbed into the blood stream and circulated throughout the body along with oxegenated blood ("Chi"). Thats "Jing to Chi". I beleave someone on this forum once made a statement that modern medical science beleaves semen is absorbed into the bloodstream after a hundred days, which struck me as amazing the old masters knew this and used it as a basic rule for the chi king cultivation.
"Chi to Shen": Chi (healthy, oxegenated blood), when toned by chikung, exercise, cardiovascular training, etc, circulates smoothly throughout the entire body, including to the brain. "Shen" can be translated as mind, spirit, etc, but really it refers to conciousness itself, or the meditative mind. So through the preservation of jing (it can be increased through specific training), the training of Chi (Chi-Kung), and the training of Shen through the practices of meditation, taoism, etc, you can reach optimal health and energy levels, as well as a strong healthy brain (mind, "shen").
This is just one way of looking at it, but once you get into the jing travelling up the spinal cord to the brain and back down the front again, it gets harder to explain and also harder for sceptics not to jump all over. But this is in fact considered the source of health and power within the human body.
As far as generating Internal power, it is a technique. It can be learned, its not mystical or imagined.

[CicadaL9H]

Well I have no idea what most of that means. I learned this directly from my Teacher, the literature he gave me (our schools student hand-books) and my grandteachers book. As I said, this stuff is actually a natuaral process that takes place in the body as long as you dont live recklessly. Of course I'm familiar with some other systems that work with this and I've made a long study of "Internal Alchemy" myself as far as the historical art and literature, but it was purposefully designed to be confusing and hard to understand without a real teacher and many different source material. theres no need to make it all so complicated. It all used to be a code language reserved for the elite, but im tryng to explain that actually, its quite easy to understand and utilize.

[CicadaL9H]

I left out the last part of the historical formula. It goes' "Jing to Chi, Chi to Shen, Shen to Wu". Wu is Nothingness/Emptyness. Or however you like to translate it. I think of it as the Tao/enlightenment, etc. Then actually there is another step, "to crush the Nothingness" but thats getting trully metaphysical and beyond my basic point