Biu Jee, Biu Sau and the Elbow

[Grumblegeezer]

BPWT Thanks for your response. It is in accord with what I learned, and also seems pretty close to what Joy stated in the quote immediately below yours. You said:

...to really work/stretch the ligaments and tendons - so for us it is important to keep the elbow firmly in place. You could move the elbow, of course, but then you wouldn't be working these things quite as much.

This focus on the joints, ligaments and tendons is to help develop the extending force that is needed for many of the attacks in BT, coupled with the body methods (particular to this form) that go with them. Lots of WT training helps develop this extending force, but these early movements in the BT form focus on it very specifically.

Joy put it this way:

The first motion after the punch in biu jee is not an isolated technique. It develops some key attributes including-snapping the palms and fingers explosively at the wrist.

Wiggling the elbow at that stage disperses the power development of the wrist and the fingers.
The elbow wiggling may however satisfy Hendrik's call for the snake! It is better in a curriculum to build skill upon skill-rather than assuming that wing chun is only a grab bag of techniques.

BPWT, I also remember LT making statements such as the one you referenced below:

...Leung Ting talks about how this form issues force 'through the fingers'.

Actually, I'm not surprised that Graham questioned your seriousness. For one thing, he doesn't seem very open minded. But beyond that, I can see how some of the terms like "vibrating force" could elicit this response if taken out of context. By themselves, these terms sound like so much mystical hokum. To my understanding this is not at all what was intended.

In my experience (many years ago) LT never resorted to the esoteric or mystical when explaining this stuff to us. When he talked to us about "extending force through the fingers" he made it clear that he was speaking of a simple physical phenomenon, which he compared to snapping a whip or wet towel, or the whipping action of the tip of a thin rattan cane. The tip of a whip or cane may be even more delicate than human fingers, yet can cut and seriously damage what it strikes. This is due to the energy being concentrated at the very tip of the object and being released into what it strikes. All of the forms, but especially Biu Tze, train this ability to focus and release your energy into your target.

[BPWT]

These are the things that LTWT teaches in BJ....An extension of huen sau? Extending force? Vibrating force? Issuing force through the fingers? In the words of John McEnroe...."You cannot be serious!"

@ Graham: I figured I didn't have to explain what was literal and what wasn't, or did you really, genuinely not understand what I was saying?

If I wasn't being clear.... When I say 'extension of huen sau' I am of course not meaning a literal extension (that is to say, huen sau made longer, LOL). I mean that huen sau as a technique or a motion has applications, but that it also (the way we do it in WT) has an affect within the forms - it is specifically helping you with tendon work, for example. Which is why the way you perform it, and how you use/position the elbow is so important. In BT, this is worked to a greater degree after the initial punch.

But share a little, Graham

Does your VT not include such tendon/ligament work?

Regarding extending force, vibrating force, etc, like I was saying... different words for essentially the same thing. Grumblegeezer summed it up nicely.

Does your VT have exactly the same force generation methods in BT as is found in your CK?

I'm not sure if, as Grumblegeezer suggests, maybe you are not really open minded - or if you simply train in a way that doesn't work with these things. Not that it matters, I guess. If you are closed minded - okay. If your VT doesn't have certain things - that's okay with me too.

@Grumblegeezer

Absolutely, there's nothing esoteric and mystical about anything I've been taught in the LT system. Body mechanics and body methods that result in an effect - if you train them long and hard (it's Kung Fu, after all ).

Of course, it is easy to say 'extending force' - which some might think sounds mystical but is a concise two words - than to spend 30 minutes rushing through the ideas in BT that include the use of the torso, utilizing seven joints, tendon work, spiral motions, special emphasis on... etc etc etc.

[Happy Tiger]

Some houses do both ways in their BJ. I'm goin through my records to find one or two examples. This is getting juicy.

[Paddington]

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Ian- for sure we are.

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Kevin asked:Joy how do you apply pressure to the wrists of the grabbing arm if you don't " wiggle/drop " the elbow ? Chi-na drops the elbow but holds the grabbing hand so it is a submission hold.
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Joy's response_ Motions in the forms develop key attributes Motions are not always techniques-
though techniques can be operationally derived from motions in the forms.

There are numerous ways to handle a wrist grab and yes the elbow is involved in most wing chun hand techniques,

The movement of the elbows up and down are already developed in slt and chum kiu Biu jee proceeds to develop additional attributes.

The first motion after the punch in biu jee is not an isolated technique. It develops some key attributes including-snapping the palms and fingers explosively at the wrist.

Wiggling the elbow at that stage disperses the power development of the wrist and the fingers.
The elbow wiggling may however satisfy Hendrik's call for the snake!

It is better in a curriculum to build skill upon skill-rather than assuming that wing chun is only a grab bag of techniques.

I really wish you would post extended explanations like this more often!

[Happy Tiger]

Some houses do both ways in their BJ. I'm goin through my records to find one or two examples. This is getting juicy.

At the Second World VT confrence master Siu Yuk Men demo'd BJ with both methods of biu sau .

[Vajramusti]

At the Second World VT confrence master Siu Yuk Men demo'd BJ with both methods of biu sau .

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Suggest care in dealing with "proof by authority"-one of the questionable "proofs".
Siu Yuk Men has been around the block but so has lots of other folks.

IMO-You can wiggle whatever you want to loosen up. But for practicing an action it helps to
know what the specific intent of the action is.

[Ali. R]

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Suggest care in dealing with "proof by authority"-one of the questionable "proofs".
Siu Yuk Men has been around the block but so has lots of other folks.

IMO-You can wiggle whatever you want to loosen up. But for practicing an action it helps to know what the specific intent of the action is.

Amen brother, here comes the Judge!

[Happy Tiger]

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Suggest care in dealing with "proof by authority"-one of the questionable "proofs".
Siu Yuk Men has been around the block but so has lots of other folks.

IMO-You can wiggle whatever you want to loosen up. But for practicing an action it helps to
know what the specific intent of the action is.

I know what I was taught. Interested on what others were also. As to master Siu Yuk Men, Im just sharing what I saw. >bows<

[Vajramusti]

I know what I was taught. Interested on what others were also. As to master Siu Yuk Men, Im just sharing what I saw. >bows<

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ok

[Happy Tiger]

Amen brother, here comes the Judge!

[trubblman]

Hahaaa .Yeah,a bit bit of a hicough there but I don't hold it against him , though.I was told once that after absorbing BJ it wasn't wise to practice the form too often as it can play havoc with your qi balance and emotional state. Any one else hear that Caution?

Stuff and nonsense.

[Happy Tiger]

Stuff and nonsense.

that seems to be the popular vote on that one.

[Happy Tiger]

another application I was taught was a kind of 'chuen sau' or threading hand technique . Depending on your footwork or body shift would dictate the action of the elbow.One hand controls two.

[Vajramusti]

that seems to be the popular vote on that one.

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This is an election?

[Graham H]

@ Graham: I figured I didn't have to explain what was literal and what wasn't, or did you really, genuinely not understand what I was saying?

If I wasn't being clear.... When I say 'extension of huen sau' I am of course not meaning a literal extension (that is to say, huen sau made longer, LOL). I mean that huen sau as a technique or a motion has applications, but that it also (the way we do it in WT) has an affect within the forms - it is specifically helping you with tendon work, for example. Which is why the way you perform it, and how you use/position the elbow is so important. In BT, this is worked to a greater degree after the initial punch.

But share a little, Graham

Does your VT not include such tendon/ligament work?

Regarding extending force, vibrating force, etc, like I was saying... different words for essentially the same thing. Grumblegeezer summed it up nicely.

Does your VT have exactly the same force generation methods in BT as is found in your CK?

I'm not sure if, as Grumblegeezer suggests, maybe you are not really open minded - or if you simply train in a way that doesn't work with these things. Not that it matters, I guess. If you are closed minded - okay. If your VT doesn't have certain things - that's okay with me too.

@Grumblegeezer

Absolutely, there's nothing esoteric and mystical about anything I've been taught in the LT system. Body mechanics and body methods that result in an effect - if you train them long and hard (it's Kung Fu, after all ).

Of course, it is easy to say 'extending force' - which some might think sounds mystical but is a concise two words - than to spend 30 minutes rushing through the ideas in BT that include the use of the torso, utilizing seven joints, tendon work, spiral motions, special emphasis on... etc etc etc.

My VT consists of sound proven fighting methods. Either that or my Sigung invented some rubbish for a laugh. Your Sigung has made his up from lack of knowledge. It's a fact often shared by his EX students that have left his cult due to his weird ways. Even 12th level technicians that were threatened if they revealed what goes on there. To be honest I'm not surprised you have ligament work. Your leader is a freak. You seem like an intelligent guy and I'm surprised you fall for it.

Feel free to scald me below.