Biu Jee, Biu Sau and the Elbow

[Grumblegeezer]

Babel schmabel. It's the curse of the Gwai-lo! And no, Joy is not immune even if, like most educated Indians, he's a poliglot. Heck, even native Cantonese speakers argue over WC terminology.

...so what can you do? Let's blame the French! I have already have one in mind.

[Vajramusti]

Babel schmabel. It's the curse of the Gwai-lo! And no, Joy is not immune even if, like most educated Indians, he's a poliglot. Heck, even native Cantonese speakers argue over WC terminology.

...so what can you do? Let's blame the French! I have already have one in mind.

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(VBG)
IMO- when Ip man taught himself- he corrected the action and movement rather than
having people memorize names for motions IMO(of course).

Also it's the written Chinese that provides some uniformity. Spoken Chinese can vary-not just Mandarin v Cantonese but from area to area- Foshan, Toishan etc and then based on education,
class and other demographic variables.


But then there is so called English--when a friendly east Texan female says "Have a good "die" "
she is not necessarily wishing you a good death... unless you are completely from the wrong lineage<g> That of course could happen!

[k gledhill]

I am only a bum from the street that was fortunate enough to be given the gift of VT. If luck holds out and God willing, I will never be anything more.

Sounds good to me.

[LoneTiger108]

Also it's the written Chinese that provides some uniformity. Spoken Chinese can vary-not just Mandarin v Cantonese but from area to area- Foshan, Toishan etc and then based on education,
class and other demographic variables.

Well, there it is.

And to think, this is something that has been said my myself and many others for so long now I still wonder how people even think they learn this stuff... are we all just physical photocopiers or do we want to know the actual content of what it is we have been playing with for so long?

[Vajramusti]

Well, there it is.

And to think, this is something that has been said my myself and many others for so long now I still wonder how people even think they learn this stuff... are we all just physical photocopiers or do we want to know the actual content of what it is we have been playing with for so long?

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A common example of differences in names for motions. In our sil lim tao there is "Fun sao"(separating hands- two hands going in opposite directions. Apparently others call it fak sao.
To me fak sao is a whisking, kind of motion where you suddenly sweep away something. So fak sao term appears in my biu jee.

[wingchunIan]

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A common example of differences in names for motions. In our sil lim tao there is "Fun sao"(separating hands- two hands going in opposite directions. Apparently others call it fak sao.
To me fak sao is a whisking, kind of motion where you suddenly sweep away something. So fak sao term appears in my biu jee.

labels are labels nothing more...
if people have to rely on the names of techniques / shapes, or their pronunciation, chinese characters etc to know how to perform them or apply them then they need to get better instruction.

[k gledhill]

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A common example of differences in names for motions. In our sil lim tao there is "Fun sao"(separating hands- two hands going in opposite directions. Apparently others call it fak sao.
To me fak sao is a whisking, kind of motion where you suddenly sweep away something. So fak sao term appears in my biu jee.

At a seminar in Belgium i was assisting V Kan, a student of Wong Kiu asked V Kan what Cantonese term meant in slt at a point after double fac sao, V Kan responded that it just meant " bring the arms back after fac sao" ; ) , opposite of Joy.... The student seemed disappointed to discover it was just a direction of sequence rather than hidden application.

[Hendrik]

In ancient perspective

Fak sau or whisking hand is a tehnic using the back of the palm side .
Bin sau or whip hand is a technic using the side of the palm similar to knive hand.

Today,

Most people are doing bin sau as fak sau.

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A common example of differences in names for motions. In our sil lim tao there is "Fun sao"(separating hands- two hands going in opposite directions. Apparently others call it fak sao.
To me fak sao is a whisking, kind of motion where you suddenly sweep away something. So fak sao term appears in my biu jee.

[LoneTiger108]

labels are labels nothing more...
if people have to rely on the names of techniques / shapes, or their pronunciation, chinese characters etc to know how to perform them or apply them then they need to get better instruction.

I would say the same for anyone who can just respond in Chisau exercises to specific drills and sansau without knowing what's what... the body may learn but the mind must be nourished, or you should not be teaching.

This goes for those who learnt directly from Ip Man too, funnily enough...

[Vajramusti]

I would say the same for anyone who can just respond in Chisau exercises to specific drills and sansau without knowing what's what... the body may learn but the mind must be nourished, or you should not be teaching.

This goes for those who learnt directly from Ip Man too, funnily enough...

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IMO
A label just helps identify a motion to people who use the same labels.- it does not necessarily inform everyone spontaneously the meaning of a motion. The hands on correction of competent teachers gives the more reliable meanings.

[Vajramusti]

At a seminar in Belgium i was assisting V Kan, a student of Wong Kiu asked V Kan what Cantonese term meant in slt at a point after double fac sao, V Kan responded that it just meant " bring the arms back after fac sao" ; ) , opposite of Joy.... The student seemed disappointed to discover it was just a direction of sequence rather than hidden application.

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Kevin, you misunderstood what I was saying, and pointless to correct the misunderstanding.
No point in debating labels.

[k gledhill]

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Kevin, you misunderstood what I was saying, and pointless to correct the misunderstanding.
No point in debating labels.

You're misunderstanding me. Funny that. ; )

[wingchunIan]

I would say the same for anyone who can just respond in Chisau exercises to specific drills and sansau without knowing what's what... the body may learn but the mind must be nourished, or you should not be teaching.

This goes for those who learnt directly from Ip Man too, funnily enough...

IMO Spencer, it is more important for a teacher to be able to explain what is done, how its done and why its done using language that the students learning can understand, combined with demonstration, than to know what label is the correct one to hang on something. To use your example, if a teacher can explain what they are doing in Chi sao using terms that make sense to their students then the students will be in a far better place than if they are simply told all of Chinese labels for each shape and action. Wing chun is a martial art not poetry writing, its what you do that matters not what you call it.

[LoneTiger108]

To use your example, if a teacher can explain what they are doing in Chi sao using terms that make sense to their students then the students will be in a far better place than if they are simply told all of Chinese labels for each shape and action.

I couldn't agree more Ian. We teach in English, and as much as we can all drivel on there is a certain amount of freedom we all must have to explaining the Whys? and Hows? The Chinese do exactly the same.

But we are talking about 'Form' here, and as far as I am aware everything does have it's 'label' as you call it, albeit this this not the way I would prefer to teach either at the beginning. But it's a fact. Glossaries are everywhere and vary enormously, so as long as you have what you have in your lineage then that's all cool.

Wing chun is a martial art not poetry writing, its what you do that matters not what you call it.

I have to disagree!

This will depend totally on how you have been taught, from my experience. Some have an emphasis on the language and will treat it as a labelling 'code' if you like, whereas some have whole sentences and some have all the principles and theories too, which can be very poetic!

To give an example, Loi Lau Hoi Song - Lut Sau Jik Chung.

It rhythms. It is only one line of many lines (that I have never seen anyone disclose) and it really DOES matter how you translate and apply it!

But I'm rambling, because I really do enjoy yapping about the language and cultural heritage of our Art so forgive me...

[Vajramusti]

IMO Spencer, it is more important for a teacher to be able to explain what is done, how its done and why its done using language that the students learning can understand, combined with demonstration, than to know what label is the correct one to hang on something. To use your example, if a teacher can explain what they are doing in Chi sao using terms that make sense to their students then the students will be in a far better place than if they are simply told all of Chinese labels for each shape and action. Wing chun is a martial art not poetry writing, its what you do that matters not what you call it.

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FWIW- I take a middle of the road position. Of course there is nothing like a teacher's explanation
of the details of the motion but adding a Chinese label results in a quick recollection in different and multiple contexts rather than creating a new label.
When I was learning English and planes were still fairly new-I was not told to call them "uro-jahaj"=a ship that flies. So even in speaking bengali-air plane was fine.Words do get absorbed into languages and the
Judokas, karatekas , yogis use their consistent labels for postures and motions.
In wing chun there are some difficulties because so many diverse lineages add their own terms to some things... but bong, tan, fuuk, kuen, gerk, ma, biu, etc are fairly common terms at least in the Ip Man variations. and allowa us to discuss the differences in their use and practice.