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Thread: Crabs in a Bucket

  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by pazman View Post
    BTW, Bawang, you do a great service to this forum anytime you bring up historical documents or your keen cultural insights. You should write a concise pamphlet to shatter people's fantasies of gongfu, so I can hand it out to the next mealy-mouthed idiot who asks me if I teach snake engine or where he can buy silk pajamas.
    no words can shatter the fantasy. its up to the person themselves.


    there are people who find life meaningless and fantasy fills their void.
    Last edited by bawang; 03-22-2013 at 01:02 AM.

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  2. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by bawang View Post
    no words can shatter the fantasy. its up to the person themselves.


    there are people who find life meaningless and fantasy fills their void.
    For some people, fantasy is more real than reality!

  3. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by pazman View Post
    Learning how to fight with some basic skill really should only take six months of training.
    That's the truth. I don't understand why the first 6 months to a year of training wouldn't be fundamental fighting skills. After that start teaching the forms and esoteric stuff.

    It should be like some sort of rite of passage anyway. Make them competent with fighting then they can have the culture, style and what not. Instead people are immediately taught the abstract parts of the art and more or less expected to "figure it out" over the next 10 years,
    Quote Originally Posted by YouKnowWho View Post
    This is 100% TCMA principle. It may be used in non-TCMA also. Since I did learn it from TCMA, I have to say it's TCMA principle.
    Quote Originally Posted by YouKnowWho View Post
    We should not use "TCMA is more than combat" as excuse for not "evolving".

    You can have Kung Fu in cooking, it really has nothing to do with fighting!

  4. #19
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    I don't think that blanket statement applies either.
    For one thing, you are not going to learn to fight unless you want to.

    Having said that, I've seen guys train for a year that still aren't that great at fighting even in a safe environment.

    too much bravado in that statement. Plus, if you got a wheezer coming in, too skinny no strength or too fat and no coordination, that six months is going to be used just to get them to a point where they are in shape and can start the training towards fighting.

    If you are fit, strong, have a martial arts background etc, then yeah, by all means, if you want it you can learn to fight inside of 6 months by training to fight.

    You are not going to touch on much esoteric knowledge and you won't be learning a system really if you are in a kung fu school, you'll be learning the typical stuff.

    But if you stay and continue, you will learn more as time goes on. Eventually you will face the law of diminishing returns and no longer be learning big new things and instead you will be repeating old familiar things.

    the only way out of that is to continually get comfortable with being uncomfortable and going and subjecting yourself to new learning and new people and new methods.

    After a while, you should become somewhat refined and aware of what is best for you.

    And that takes years and I don't care who you are or what you are doing. It takes years.

    Even GSP wasn't great in 6 months, he has spent years refining himself as a fighter distinctly and only as a fighter. You know what, he will face decline and will fall back in the ranks as the others climb. And so will you each and if you never did get there. it's funny that you would think you still have time to do so now.

    There's my .02
    Kung Fu is good for you.

  5. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by pazman View Post
    Yep.

    What's sad is that coaching the skinny nerdy guys and training them enough to be able to stand up to jock bullies isn't rocket science. Learning how to fight with some basic skill really should only take six months of training. Some teachers might still be having their students stand in santi or learning wubuquan or some ****. Those things are worthwhile to some, but if you are training those things instead of learning how to fight, then we should call it exercise, not martial art.

    Of course, guys like Robinhood can stand back and laugh at how that's just "body level" stuff, but we don't see these "mouth boxers" out there proving their game or improving the world. I wonder if Kano Jigoro had to deal with people like him.

    BTW, Bawang, you do a great service to this forum anytime you bring up historical documents or your keen cultural insights. You should write a concise pamphlet to shatter people's fantasies of gongfu, so I can hand it out to the next mealy-mouthed idiot who asks me if I teach snake engine or where he can buy silk pajamas.
    Snake engine?
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  6. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kellen Bassette View Post
    That's the truth. I don't understand why the first 6 months to a year of training wouldn't be fundamental fighting skills. After that start teaching the forms and esoteric stuff.

    It should be like some sort of rite of passage anyway. Make them competent with fighting then they can have the culture, style and what not. Instead people are immediately taught the abstract parts of the art and more or less expected to "figure it out" over the next 10 years,
    This is the problem for the TCMA. The window to test your combat skill is small. The day that you have a full time job, get marry, and have kids, the day that you don't want to get injury in full contact testing. On the other extream, you can still develop your "snake engine" when you are 80 years old.

    Which one should you develop first? Combat skill or snake engine?
    Last edited by YouKnowWho; 03-22-2013 at 10:00 AM.
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  7. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by YouKnowWho View Post
    This is the problem for the TCMA. The window to test your combat skill is small. The day that you have a full time job, get marry, and have kids, the day that you don't want to get injury in full contact testing. On the other extream, you can still develop your "snake engine" when you are 80 years old.

    Which one should you develop first? Combat skill or snake engine?

    You always do external first, you will progress fast in the beginning , but peak out quickly, then you look for other ways to progress further, if you want to progress.

  8. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robinhood View Post
    You always do external first, you will progress fast in the beginning , but peak out quickly, then you look for other ways to progress further, if you want to progress.
    Not everybody care about "prograss futher". I'll be happy if I can still knock/take my opponent down when I'm 80 years old. That will be as far as I want to go. I may try to learn how to send out a Qi ball in my next life but not in this life of mine.

    The most valuable lesson that I have learned in my life is:

    Student: What's the difference between high level skill and low level skill?
    Master: Anything that you can make it to work in combat, it's high level skill. Otherwise, it's low level skill.
    Last edited by YouKnowWho; 03-22-2013 at 10:43 AM.
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  9. #24
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    by peak out quickly, you must mean becoming the world champions in various weight divisions across various fighting circuits across the world. because thats where the 'external' guys end up. you know, being the top fighters in the world.
    For whoso comes amongst many shall one day find that no one man is by so far the mightiest of all.

  10. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Lucas View Post
    by peak out quickly, you must mean becoming the world champions in various weight divisions across various fighting circuits across the world. because thats where the 'external' guys end up. you know, being the top fighters in the world.
    No, I mean your progress is not paying off for the amount of training, diminishing return for amount of time spent training, you stagnate . Unless you are doing sport fighting, then you are training for conditioning mostly, but age will limit you there , along with injuries and amount of time available to train.

    I think your in your description , you left out the word "sport" , in top fighters , it should read top sport fighters.

    Yes there are mostly external, but the better ones will , or are using internal , its just natural progression .

  11. #26
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    Can we just stop the "internal is good and sport is bad" arguments?

    We have repeated this so many times. There won't be any new information from this kind of discussion.
    Last edited by YouKnowWho; 03-22-2013 at 12:58 PM.
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  12. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by YouKnowWho View Post
    Can we just stop the "internal is good and sport is bad" arguments?

    We have repeated this so many times. There won't be any new information from this kind of discussion.
    I noticed you removed your second lament- "TCMA techniques are not effective and need more full contact testing" .

    Why? Unless.....

    Until a 120 pounder takes out a 260lb MMA guy, a la Yang Lu Chan, this one is here to stay.

  13. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flusher View Post
    I noticed you took out a second line, "TCMA techniques are not effective and need more full contact testing" ....

    Is that a concession?

    Because until a 120 pounder takes out a large MMA practitioner, a la Yang Lu Chan, this one is here to stay.
    As far as "TCMA techniques are not effective and need more full contact testing" argument, there are enough of those argument going on in those WC threads. Robinhood will treate those "full contact testing" as "sport" anyway.

    Allow me to borrow our MMA friend's argument here. I always want to ask Robinhood,

    - Who are those "internal" fighters that you are talking about?
    - Can you put up just one "internal" fighter's clip?
    Last edited by YouKnowWho; 03-22-2013 at 01:24 PM.
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  14. #29
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    Sport yes, but most people do not realize there is not THAT big of a differentiation between sport and non sport. for instance, if you take someone like cung le, anderson silva, or fedor emelianenko, and pit them against any 'internal' martial artist of your choice, they will still win. why? because they actually fight, and have extreme amounts of experience. experience is the greatest teacher of all.

    you see, it doesnt matter if you do sport or not, the key is actually fighting, not sparring, but real honest fights, with or without rules. the key to being champion material is being an intelligent figher, and having the talent, heart and skills to be able to adapt. these same guys would be able to easily adapt to any scenario any 'internal' martial artist could put forth.

    they real secret to martial arts and fighting is fighting. period.

    i dont disagree that any fighter from any discipline can become a champion. i believe any 'style', if trained properly, can develop world class fighters. but you see, you must fight and not just spar.
    For whoso comes amongst many shall one day find that no one man is by so far the mightiest of all.

  15. #30
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    Also you should not fight just people from your own style. You should fight people from other styles.
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