Are there real Shaolin Monks?

[wenshu]

Well, my point was, we all believe in things that sometimes disappoint us when reality opens our eyes to our misunderstanding. It might be Santa Claus, Shaolin Monks, your parents, a teacher, the government, etc.

We all hold views, some of which, will not coincide with reality and at some point in life we will be hit with reality and that is a disappointment many times.

Cognitive dissonance is a hell of a drug. Otherwise intellectually sophisticated, seemingly self aware individuals will bend over backwards with all manner of facile equivocation to ameliorate the discomfort of the realization that a belief clung to at the very core of their self perception does not align with the blunt object of reality. Sometimes it is a crude denial of painfully obvious facts. People with a little more time on their hands will employ confirmation bias, desperate misdirection, and clumsy rhetoric to construct labyrinthine justifications not necessarily to convince others, but themselves.

It is fear of pain. The realization that you've been lied to/mislead hurts. Especially when you've invested time and resources. Perhaps the realization that you've been lying to yourself hurts even more, people will do anything to avoid pain.

[wenshu]

What's really cool is when someone flips it.

When calling attention to a Straw Man argument is the Straw Man.

That's clever.

[LFJ]

I've seen how some here distort what people say, don't read carefully, insult reasonable people, and then demand "proof" for straw men and claims no one made. It's some kind of game they're playing. They come in with a pet peeve and then project the peeve onto whatever is actually going on. Anyway, I thought you didn't want to bicker about this. So why not stick to responding to what people are actually arguing or presenting instead of what you assume people are about.

Purtty much... Sums up some people's entire involvement in this thread...

It does make you feel pretty tough though, to think you're the only one with practical training and to slap harsh reality on those fantasy fighters with the dreaded demand for proof.

[Miqi]

I'm all for taking a sceptical approach to wild claims. I cringe when people start using undigested ideas from physics to "explain" new age ideas. But I've seen how some here distort what people say, don't read carefully, insult reasonable people, and then demand "proof" for straw men and claims no one made. It's some kind of game they're playing. They come in with a pet peeve and then project the peeve onto whatever is actually going on. Anyway, I thought you didn't want to bicker about this. So why not stick to responding to what people are actually arguing or presenting instead of what you assume people are about.

To be honest, Rett, I don't think it is "bickering" to question how people who doubt what they're being told are "handled" by very long-practiced spin-doctors within the martial arts internet community. I actually think that that is a substantial area of debate which, in time, couild lead to us to a better place in terms of how we communicate effectively, free from smears, both obvious and implied.

[Miqi]

To me the only superpowers truly worth trying to develop are the ability to use compassion to overcome cruelty, courage to overcome fear, equanimity to overcome worry and restlessness, and kindness to overcome hatred. Those sorts of things are the business of monks.

Now that, right there, is an example of spin-doctoring. On one level, these qualities are unquestionably superior to being able to effectively stamp on someone's face. But that is a total misdirection away from the simple question about the effectiveness of a particular training method or individual product of that method.

Plus, it's an implied smear - it's there to imply that people have somehow "missed" this most important message. How patronising and grand of you. People know these qualities, they just also want practical knowledge about training methods and what they actually achieve.

[Miqi]

Cognitive dissonance is a hell of a drug. Otherwise intellectually sophisticated, seemingly self aware individuals will bend over backwards with all manner of facile equivocation to ameliorate the discomfort of the realization that a belief clung to at the very core of their self perception does not align with the blunt object of reality. Sometimes it is a crude denial of painfully obvious facts. People with a little more time on their hands will employ confirmation bias, desperate misdirection, and clumsy rhetoric to construct labyrinthine justifications not necessarily to convince others, but themselves.

It is fear of pain. The realization that you've been lied to/mislead hurts. Especially when you've invested time and resources. Perhaps the realization that you've been lying to yourself hurts even more, people will do anything to avoid pain.

Agreed. To me the iconic example of this is when the qi powered masters started getting their fraud tested for real - and when it didn't work, a new lie was born: That of people not being "sensitive enough" to qi for it to work on them. So it actually became like a disability, that the master's qi didn't work on you - and at the same time managed to make the people who did throw themselves on the floor feel like they were special, because they were "semsitive". That's so devious it's mind boggling.

[Miqi]

Purtty much... Sums up some people's entire involvement in this thread...

It does make you feel pretty tough though, to think you're the only one with practical training and to slap harsh reality on those fantasy fighters with the dreaded demand for proof.

And this here is a classic example. All that's been asked of you is to provide some reasonable supporting information to help the debate move onto better territory, where clear examples can be debated and considered to our mutual advancement. But instead of doing that, you've smeared the people who asked you for that supporting data.

So what should that make me think about you?

[rett]

54 long-practised spin doctors

[Miqi]

Rett, this is the interent - of course people misinterpret what others have said; just as, it is possible to say all kinds of things without ever having to do anything else but say them.

However, the problem is that sometimes people think that what they've said isn't a particularly big deal, and so can't understand why others would see it as such. For example, claiming that traditional wushu is "obviously" better than contemporary wushu because traditional has "fight application training". While that appears, linguistically, to be true, it's not at all clear that it's true in reality. And so if someone questions it, it might seem like they're being ridiculously pedantic.

I'm just going to enjoy Shaolin monks for what they are - folk wushu guys who do some pretty cool stuff and are proably some pretty tough guys who know their way around a san da ring. Anything else.. bicker away by all means.

[Kellen Bassette]

It does make you feel pretty tough though, to think you're the only one with practical training and to slap harsh reality on those fantasy fighters with the dreaded demand for proof.

You got videos brah???

[gunbeatskroty]

It's a physical measurement. If it's performed under controlled conditions and the results are properly evaluated in the context of testing scientific theories then yes, it's a scientific measurement.

That's nice, so if you consider that lighting up a small LED bulb attached to my butt while moonwalking on shaggy carpet with socks on is a great feat of Kung-Fudability, then we don't have the same opinion on what's considered a good fighting style based on proof.

[gunbeatskroty]

I think most of us don't consider the circus tricks the slightest bit interesting or convincing.

Coming in and saying "I'm sorry to have to report" is a bit funny / self-aggrandizing in that context. As if you're the only one who has ever questioned those silly shows with spear bending and board breaking.

It's especially funny when people come in with a chip on their shoulder or some personal pet peeve, and make up a bunch of straw men to attack.

It's a bit like me saying Miqi, gunbeatskroty, I'm terribly sorry to have to report to you guys that wrestling is fake. There are no wrestlers and it doesn't work. I've had the privileged opportunity to watch two professional wrestlers plan their fixed choreography before a televised match. Just some amazing contacts I have that enabled amazing me to find out the awful truth.

I hate having to break it to ya, seeing as how much you believe in professional wrestling, monster trucks, and giant chainsaws, but those are the facts.

Well if your Chi Gong or Gong Chi whatever works, bring it to The Amazing Randi to collect your $1,000,000.

[gunbeatskroty]

Professional wrestling is NOT fake Dude! Get real or get the he!! outta here, man!

I've seen probly millions of matches and they all look real to me and everyone else I watch with!!!!! I even gotta a T-shirt that says "Wrestling is Real!", so you know it is, cuz they couldn't make a shirt that says so if it wasn't true!!! That's like , against the Constitution and human rights and the Geneva Convention and the Bible and stuff like that!

do people around you cringe when you try to make jokes at parties or gatherings?

[GeneChing]

54 long-practised spin doctors

Don't post porn here. This is a family show.

[rett]

That's nice, so if you consider that lighting up a small LED bulb attached to my butt while moonwalking on shaggy carpet with socks on is a great feat of Kung-Fudability, then we don't have the same opinion on what's considered a good fighting style based on proof.

Did I ever say I thought that? No. So you're still ascribing views to people they don't have. Easy to win arguments that way.