Are there real Shaolin Monks?

[Miqi]

no no, traditional SanDa looks very close to the modern SanDa, yes. but SanDa has always been a class of combat methods safe for competition in the arena. if you want to kill your opponent, or the opponents go to kill you, if you act like SanDa, your head may be cut off at a glance!

Yeah, whatever.

[Miqi]

Sure there is, to those who train it and use it.

Well that's what I've been saying all along - there is nothing you can show that deminstrates this.

I can tell you he can use it.

Yeah? And who are you? Why should I care about your assessment of anyone? Note, however, that your "evidence" is really just you making a further claim to be correct.

It's part of his training that I've seen and done.

Yes, but I don't think that you're competent to assess this. You are easily impressed, and lack relevant technical knowledge.

On the other hand, the nanquan guy can't use the actions in his form because it is simply not for fighting, which is no secret. He has to train sanda, which again develops a different mentality than training for non-sport self-protection.

Still, I bet that young monk would be whispering "shut your mouth" to you.

It just boils down to your lack of experience with it then. You're welcome to not believe it until you experience it. Until then, your belief should be suspended, I suppose, but I would also not take the opposite position and say it is not martially applicable while having no experience of it.

My belief is suspended. And so, we come full circle. The important thing is that you never actually had to support anything you said with real evidence, and so the lie is safe, and most importantly of all, you didn't have to learn anything new.

Now video yourself doing forms and show me.

[rett]

Miqi, are you capable of just having a discussion without always turning into your own personal battle with your demons, via your scapegoat of the moment?

[rett]

How can scenario training (or whatever you want to call it) prepare you for recovering from the following?

Starting point, bottle has just been smashed across your face with no warning.

Or starting point: You've just been jumped from behind (literally jumped on) and smashed into the ground and the guy who jumped you has three friends.

[Miqi]

Miqi, are you capable of just having a discussion without always turning into your own personal battle with your demons, via your scapegoat of the moment?

Well, we've all got to have a hobby.

[LFJ]

Well that's what I've been saying all along - there is nothing you can show that deminstrates this.

It only needs to be demonstrated to me. Just like your own training needs only be validated by yourself. I don't care what you personally train and how good you are at it. It's irrelevant to the discussion we're having and helps me none. What does counting other people's sheep do for you?

Yes, but I don't think that you're competent to assess this. You are easily impressed, and lack relevant technical knowledge.

What are you talking about?

My belief is suspended. And so, we come full circle. The important thing is that you never actually had to support anything you said with real evidence, and so the lie is safe, and most importantly of all, you didn't have to learn anything new.

Not sure what you think I'm lying about. I'm attempting to discuss different types of training and why I think what I think is good.

[Miqi]

How can scenario training (or whatever you want to call it) prepare you for recovering from the following?

Starting point, bottle has just been smashed across your face with no warning.

Or starting point: You've just been jumped from behind (literally jumped on) and smashed into the ground and the guy who jumped you has three friends.

I've never had the former - although I have been punched in the face more than once in a real surprise attack. There again, when I say "surprise", I was talking just before - and that may be correlated to said punches.

I have been through the latter, though. I can tell you one thing NOT to do - run. They just ran after me, lol - and then I was knackered.

Nothing, really can prepare you for this because it's not just the physical aspect, it's the change of mental scenario - the gut-wrenching, sickening fear of knowing that this is real. That is why sparring is so important - it at least puts you in an uncomfortable place and makes you defend yourself under stress, and take hits.

In real terms, when I was on the ground taking a kicking, I had a kind of transcendental moment where I wasn't really afraid - I was too much in shock for that - but I just thought, wow, what a stupid way to die, like an animal. Looking back, I probably could have tried to get back up. But I didn't, I just lay there to die, and some mystery girl rescued me by intervening and making them stop.

[Miqi]

It only needs to be demonstrated to me. Just like your own training needs only be validated by yourself.

Yes, well, that's just mendacity. Is this the "Shaolin way"?

I don't care what you personally train and how good you are at it. It's irrelevant to the discussion we're having and helps me none. What does counting other people's sheep do for you?

It should matter. You should listen to people who know better - that's how you get more and better knowledge.

What are you talking about?

Well you're asking the right question. All you need now is to go back over the answer.

Not sure what you think I'm lying about. I'm attempting to discuss different types of training and why I think what I think is good.

Well that's just out and out lying. You're not discussing different types of training, you're saying that Shaolin monks DO a different kind of training that makes them so much better than the others we have discussed. And then you've squirmed, wriggled, besmirched and lied to protect this statment. Everything, in fact, but provide support for it.

Again - stop playing the coy maiden. Let's see it - show me your Shaolinquan, you big wool-puller. I don't believe you even practice this art.

[rett]

I've never had the former - although I have been punched in the face more than once in a real surprise attack. There again, when I say "surprise", I was talking just before - and that may be correlated to said punches.

In your case it almost certainly correlated.

Looking back, I probably could have tried to get back up. But I didn't, I just lay there to die, and some mystery girl rescued me by intervening and making them stop.

So you are handicapped by a sport-fighter mentality, as LFJ would say. That girl was the referee you count on.

How can one mentally train for needing to rapidly recover from a surprise attack and the shock/pain/unreality? Can it be trained for without too much risk of injury?

[LFJ]

You're not discussing different types of training, you're saying that Shaolin monks DO a different kind of training that makes them so much better than the others we have discussed.

to the rest of your nonsense, but better in what way? I've repeatedly stated that it is silly to compare the two directly this way and say one is "better" than the other. So, I think you just need to read more carefully before accusing someone of lying, if you are actually at all seriously interested in the discussion.

[Miqi]

to the rest of your nonsense, but better in what way? I've repeatedly stated that it is silly to compare the two directly this way and say one is "better" than the other. So, I think you just need to read more carefully before accusing someone of lying, if you are actually at all seriously interested in the discussion.

I have no further questions for you.

[Miqi]

In your case it almost certainly correlated.

Defnitely so.

So you are handicapped by a sport-fighter mentality, as LFJ would say. That girl was the referee you count on.

Yes, I was very lucky. I would never wish an experience like this on anyone. But it did bring a great deal of stuff into focus.

[rett]

OK, idea.

You are blindfolded. One or more partners approach you and move around you holding big rectangular pads in front of their chests. You know at some point they are going to inflict a lot of (harmless but painful and shocking) pain. Being blindfolded makes the exact moment more of a surprise. You get slapped hard across the face (to the side of the nose, or over the nose if this can be done without breaking it) straight down with a rolled up newspaper and at the exact moment you recognize the feeling of shock you dive elbow-forward at center of mass. Chin tucked into arm/shoulder, nose covered by inside of elbow, hand on top of head or behind opposite shoulder, other arm across ribs, solar plexus, hand on other side's ribs. You want to get inside, and hopefully elbow his solar plexus with body weight behind it to shock him back like you just got shocked. In any case you need to knock into him and keep going from there. And you don't even want to try to evaluate the situation or see what he's doing or whatever before taking action because you're already slowed down relative to him. You're just training a reaction to the very fact that you've been sucker punched, to the feeling of sudden shock and spacing out. Do it enough times so it's just what you do, and then hope your nephew doesn't hit you with a nerf football at christmas dinner.

Realistic? Possibly helpful? Stupid? Other ideas?

[LFJ]

I'm not a fan of scenario training either, especially drilling prearranged tactics for specific types of attacks. It's not an effective way to train. There are too many unknown variables in a fight. Any conditioned response may lead to freezing up or falling apart when the elements unexpectedly change or the opponent does something else.

[Miqi]

OK, idea.

You are blindfolded. One or more partners approach you and move around you holding big rectangular pads in front of their chests. You know at some point they are going to inflict a lot of (harmless but painful and shocking) pain. Being blindfolded makes the exact moment more of a surprise. You get slapped hard across the face (to the side of the nose, or over the nose if this can be done without breaking it) straight down with a rolled up newspaper and at the exact moment you recognize the feeling of shock you dive elbow-forward at center of mass. Chin tucked into arm/shoulder, nose covered by inside of elbow, hand on top of head or behind opposite shoulder, other arm across ribs, solar plexus, hand on other side's ribs. You want to get inside, and hopefully elbow his solar plexus with body weight behind it to shock him back like you just got shocked. In any case you need to knock into him and keep going from there. And you don't even want to try to evaluate the situation or see what he's doing or whatever before taking action because you're already slowed down relative to him. You're just training a reaction to the very fact that you've been sucker punched, to the feeling of sudden shock and spacing out. Do it enough times so it's just what you do, and then hope your nephew doesn't hit you with a nerf football at christmas dinner.

Realistic? Possibly helpful? Stupid? Other ideas?

This kind of thing can be very useful... but... There are always different levels that people are training at. Classes to tend to find their own level, so that riot police training might not be qute the same as local church hall training. Thus a good idea might actually not get the required reuslts because the intensity falls to a lower average level.

The psychological aspect is very important, and it's difficult to replicate this.