Are there real Shaolin Monks?

[Scott R. Brown]

That's actually an argument against it's effectiveness.

Sure it is!

[Scott R. Brown]

....what are forms for?

Exercise.

[wenshu]

Sure it is!

Tactical Urban Warfare Infantry Maneuvers? Yeah, ok.

Individual self defense. Not so much brah.

Join a boxing gym and get used to keeping cool while getting smacked around. Elaborate pre arranged ballroom scenarios will only lead to the indecisiveness they're ostensibly formulated to prevent when all the pretty moves don't line up with the chaos of the situation.

[gunbeatskroty]

When it comes to "Sanda vs. the street" for lack of a better term, would people agree with the following?

In fact, let's just say "boxing" for the sport-oriented training.
So if you agree with this, then perhaps you could say:

Training for fighting in a sports environment is very good preparation for real-life self defence, but needs a bit of additional scenario training to be complete.

Is this a platform everyone can accept?

The problem is, there's really no such "complete" scenario training. Because most people who trains these "self defense" scenarios, won't allow this "good Boxer" to punch them in the face at say, 70% or more power while they're holding a rubber knife. That would be my defense against a knife, I'll go for the quick KO with the 'ol 1,2 at the slow and usually stationary head rather than try to grab at the fast moving knife hand with some ninja moves.

The main problem with Self Defense training is that most people there are afraid to get hit hard in the face, so it's usually only pretend attacking. That's just it in a nutshell. I like to visit Krav Maga gyms to train SD against weapons to broaden my horizon. Sure they teach me stuff I didn't know about disarming a gun wielder, but once in a blue moon, they would spar w/boxing gloves and I'll beat all 20+ of the KM only pretty easily. If hard sparring was allowed, I'd knock out all of them. The only ones that can beat me would be the ones who are MT or MMA sports fighters of such KM gyms. While the KM only gyms, in general, are usually all pretend-fighters.

And Boxing only is pretty limited compared to MMA or even Muay Thai alone. In general, MMA beats them all.

[gunbeatskroty]

I don't have the time to be training something that will develop the wrong mentality in me and try to override that with another kind of training and hope that is the first to come out should I need it to.

There's is no clear definition of how a street altercation will go down so you really can't train that realistically by slaps and touches. While punching your training partner in the face hard for the KO and vice versa, is a lot more realistic training. That's how most street attack go down anyway, people head hunt. Getting punched hard in the face often, is mandatory for real training for the streets.

If anything, based on the THOUSANDS of videos online nowadays (as any welfare recipient seems to also have a smartphone) with about 3-5 new street fight videos per day available....street fights are sloppy and a lot safer than fights vs. equally trained fighters in the ring. Only about 1-2 out of thousands would someone gets beaten to death or into a coma....and it's usually death by MOB, so not type of training, sports or SD would save anyone there.

Usually the street fight stops once someone is knocked the F out. Either someone stops it, but most of the time, it's the winner of the fight who voluntarily cease....so yea, no death match BS like they try to tell you in Self Defense class to sell you a membership while talking down against how sports fighting is so different and less effective in the streets.

And I'm not talking about censored YouTube videos, but hardcore sites where they have plenty of gore videos and actual videos of murder, execution, torture, beheading, etc. That's where you find a lot of street fights with weapons, etc.

[gunbeatskroty]

How can scenario training (or whatever you want to call it) prepare you for recovering from the following?

Starting point, bottle has just been smashed across your face with no warning.

Or starting point: You've just been jumped from behind (literally jumped on) and smashed into the ground and the guy who jumped you has three friends.

In these situations, my money would be on the experienced MMA fighter, more likely to be able to get out alive or with less injuries than the Self Defense only practitioner who've never tried to knock someone the F out during training before, let alone fight in the ring. Who's more used to getting hit hard in the head while dishing out the same?

Anyone who've had at least 2-3 fights in the ring or cage would know that you keep on fighting until you can't any longer....no matter how badly someone's blasting the crap out of your face & body with their strikes. Who do you think can take more pain & punishment.... and have more endurance, skills, agility, power and mostly, experience, to fight back against such surprise attacks or against multiple attackers?

I love sparring 2 on 1 at this one Krav Maga school. Just footwork, lots of jabs & teeps and at the right time attack the F out of 1 guy and beat his butt down while always keeping him between the other guy. Not rocket science...we just don't have cool tactical terms for footwork. If it were real in the streets vs. multiple attackers, I would freaking run or you may call it, "tactical disengagement". Most TMA people won't even be able to handle the average 20-30 minute warmup of the average BJJ class. Then there's always sparring in the last 30-40 minutes that's at 100% power. I usually take 2-3 classes back to back. So on the streets, dang...if I ran, no average chubby thug will have the endurance even come close to catching me.

[gunbeatskroty]

OK, idea.

You are blindfolded. One or more partners approach you and move around you holding big rectangular pads in front of their chests. You know at some point they are going to inflict a lot of (harmless but painful and shocking) pain. Being blindfolded makes the exact moment more of a surprise. You get slapped hard across the face (to the side of the nose, or over the nose if this can be done without breaking it) straight down with a rolled up newspaper and at the exact moment you recognize the feeling of shock you dive elbow-forward at center of mass. Chin tucked into arm/shoulder, nose covered by inside of elbow, hand on top of head or behind opposite shoulder, other arm across ribs, solar plexus, hand on other side's ribs. You want to get inside, and hopefully elbow his solar plexus with body weight behind it to shock him back like you just got shocked. In any case you need to knock into him and keep going from there. And you don't even want to try to evaluate the situation or see what he's doing or whatever before taking action because you're already slowed down relative to him. You're just training a reaction to the very fact that you've been sucker punched, to the feeling of sudden shock and spacing out. Do it enough times so it's just what you do, and then hope your nephew doesn't hit you with a nerf football at christmas dinner.

Realistic? Possibly helpful? Stupid? Other ideas?

Yes, this is good training but nothing spectacular as that guy is not really hitting you hard while you're blindfolded. They do this in the Krav Maga gyms I go to. The guy that hits me really hard will pay if sparring comes next. Not saying that this type of training sucks, just that it's certainly better than nothing while still way inferior to the average MMA training where average sparring is 60-70% power (that can spike to 100%) and hard sparring, where it's 100% for KO's.

[Kellen Bassette]

Not saying that this type of training sucks, just that it's certainly better than nothing while still way inferior to the average MMA training where average sparring is 60-70% power (that can spike to 100%) and hard sparring, where it's 100% for KO's.

I believe in sparring hard, but stopping short of KO. Worry about health effects if you get knocked out too much. I feel like if your getting rocked it's enough pressure to take it seriously and act accordingly; (although when someone is gunning for the KO it tends to up your intensity even more.)

Do you get KOed often in your sparring; or do you find it pretty rare? Do you still go 100% when the sparring is a size mismatch? How many times a week do you typically spar at this intensity?

[gunbeatskroty]

I believe in sparring hard, but stopping short of KO. Worry about health effects if you get knocked out too much. I feel like if your getting rocked it's enough pressure to take it seriously and act accordingly; (although when someone is gunning for the KO it tends to up your intensity even more.)

Do you get KOed often in your sparring; or do you find it pretty rare? Do you still go 100% when the sparring is a size mismatch? How many times a week do you typically spar at this intensity?

I don't get head KO'ed that much, more body KO's than anything else. It's not easy to head KO someone of the same size + skill levels. I've KO'ed guys with spinning back kicks to the liver the most. And knock downs, which I could keep going to really hurt someone, but rare do as they're my gym mates afterall.

When I spar against someone my size but below my level, I don't hit them that hard unless they're throwing bombs first or goes crazy. I would then show them that I can kill them pretty easily so they'd tone it down and we both lower the power and spar calmly again. If they get crazy again, sometimes I knock them down or wobble them, but won't keep going for the KO.

When going against someone my size + my level, we usually go medium and controlled. If it's designated "hard sparring" then we both go for the KD or KO or until the other guy does the "X" to tap. But we don't spar hard often, just sometimes. When prepping for a fight, there is more hard sparring though. Usually it's light sparring at 30-50% or average sparring at 70% power, which could cause a KO though and often do spike to 100% power when someone thinks they got hit harder than what was agreed upon.

When sparring "average" against someone who I know can beat the crap out of me, I make sure I pull the power when I'm about to land a good shot. He still beats my ass, but being the more skilled fighter...he will match my power level to maybe a little harder as courtesy for my respecting him, but he would still keep the speed + intensity.....so he's still following up with full combos after landing a hard jab or something. And the body shots would still be full power with KO intentions. During hard sparring vs. say this same Pro fighter, then I have no choice but to try to KO him. I always get dropped but I do hurt him with some good shots though. Sometimes I drop on purpose because I can't take it any more and need a break or to end the round early.

Headgear helps a lot. But this is how I've survived and kept training for so long. Many tougher guys takes more riskier routes, ie. takes a cheapshot at someone who can destroy them. Some make it while others don't....ie. gets hurt too badly, serious concussions, etc. and quit. I don't fight for a living, just a hobby so I have no problem tapping out or giving up and accepting that certain guys at my gym can whoop me. The cool part is when you move up in the ranks after paying the dues of getting beat down for many years and you earn respect from the newer guys. Good headgear is a must....at least $80-90 and up...none of that Century brand crap.

[Kellen Bassette]

Your take on sparring sounds a lot like mine...I was getting the impression you were sparring like a full on fight every week...that seemed like it would be tough to sustain for an extended period of time...

[gunbeatskroty]

Your take on sparring sounds a lot like mine...I was getting the impression you were sparring like a full on fight every week...that seemed like it would be tough to sustain for an extended period of time...

It's hard to explain sometimes. In a sense, it is kind of like a full on fight but controlled because we don't want to gas. 4-6 rounds is a lot. When I was at this Boxing gym, sparring class was once a week and technical 2x.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ds9XdofPcAU

They're pacing themselves but it's still going for KO shots. If there's a 3rd guy there (and no fourth), then one of them is going again after these 2 long, 3 minute rounds.

This seems to be standard sparring at a Boxing gym....trying to KO the other guy. But neither of these guys would hit a newer person this hard.

[LFJ]

Doing forms has its purpose but is not fight training (obviously) and I have never said so.

So far you've said that within Shaolin forms there is the shen fa of fight training, and that monks know how to use the techniques in the forms for fistic purposes. Now you say that forms have little to do with fighting.

So before I shoot the bat, tell me then: what are forms for?

I didn't say it has little to do with fighting. I said it has its purpose but is not fight training (obviously). The forms to me are not a collection of 1:1 technique applications either (1:1 isolation training is not realistic or effective in my opinion/experience).

While training forms can develop many attributes, for me, it is mainly a tool for structural development- where structure and fighting concepts and principles of the system are introduced, and where one refers to correct any structural errors from the beginning. There are later drills and full sparring where one is pressure tested at more demanding levels, but it all refers back to the forms.

[LFJ]

I don't have the time to be training something that will develop the wrong mentality in me and try to override that with another kind of training and hope that is the first to come out should I need it to.

There's is no clear definition of how a street altercation will go down so you really can't train that realistically by slaps and touches.

Not sure why you responded to my post with this. You must have made a mistake. I never gave such an alternative and in training for sport is not the only place hard sparring can be done (obviously).

[Scott R. Brown]

Tactical Urban Warfare Infantry Maneuvers? Yeah, ok.

Individual self defense. Not so much brah.

Join a boxing gym and get used to keeping cool while getting smacked around. Elaborate pre arranged ballroom scenarios will only lead to the indecisiveness they're ostensibly formulated to prevent when all the pretty moves don't line up with the chaos of the situation.

Well, I agree with the "elaborate" prearrangement being less effective. The more elaborate things get the less efficient. But indecisiveness comes from inexperience or improper instruction not necessarily from practicing prearranged moves. Even boxers have prearranged moves. Just keep them basic and rather simple.

When a MMA practices getting out or a hold they are practicing a prearranged response to an specific circumstance, when you practice a number of different responses to the same circumstance you build flexibility into ones repertoire that allows one to innovate on the fly.

If practicing prearranged actions was completely ineffective there would be no learning anything.

[Miqi]

I didn't say it has little to do with fighting. I said it has its purpose but is not fight training (obviously). The forms to me are not a collection of 1:1 technique applications either (1:1 isolation training is not realistic or effective in my opinion/experience).

While training forms can develop many attributes, for me, it is mainly a tool for structural development- where structure and fighting concepts and principles of the system are introduced, and where one refers to correct any structural errors from the beginning. There are later drills and full sparring where one is pressure tested at more demanding levels, but it all refers back to the forms.

You know what, if this is working for you, then good stuff - who am I to argue? I had a kung fu brother who was very seriously committed to Shaolinquan, and he reallly could use techniques from forms - and he could box and kick box very effectively as well. Sometimes I just want to see how far you really do believe what you say - and so I really hope that these monks are as you say, as i have enormous respect for Shaolin.