Are there real Shaolin Monks?

[Miqi]

One on one fair matches in a protective environment with protective rules and whatnot with no risk of serious injury or death... especially highly restrictive sanda comps... that is pretend fighting... not the be all and end all.

These kinds of points are churlish. One could pretend for ever - much as JKD does for the most part - that the proof of its efficacy only exists in some future scenario where there are "no rules". In that case, although what you say is technically true, there's still more proof that someone who does san da is dangerous than there is for the fantasy martial artist.

Of course a streetfight is not a ring fight - but there again, a street fight is not always as dangerous as a ring fight. Besides which, Shaolin martial monks put on protective equipment and spar san da, just the same as other wushu schools.

[LFJ]

They were very impressive - but then I got to see a lot of professional level Chinese wushu over a long period, and there is a substantial difference in level.

Of course, you can choose to believe that the differences are really indications of superior level in the monks. That makes no difference to what is right or wrong in reality.

My point is that the purpose and therefore standards are very different. The type of power generation, for example, of someone striking a beautiful pose to make it look good so it wins a tournament is not the same as someone who is training with martial intent. That is necessarily so because their shenfa will not be based on fighting concepts but only on what is aesthetically pleasing.

People coming from sport wushu backgrounds to train Shaolin wugong often can't help but perform it in an exaggerated sporty way. Although they might make some movements look quite beautiful, they completely destroy the postures and shenfa and reduce it to skin and hair practice.

I've trained folks like that and it is difficult to break their attachment to aesthetics in favor of principle-based shenfa.

[LFJ]

These kinds of points are churlish. One could pretend for ever - much as JKD does for the most part - that the proof of its efficacy only exists in some future scenario where there are "no rules". In that case, although what you say is technically true, there's still more proof that someone who does san da is dangerous than there is for the fantasy martial artist.

Of course a streetfight is not a ring fight - but there again, a street fight is not always as dangerous as a ring fight. Besides which, Shaolin martial monks put on protective equipment and spar san da, just the same as other wushu schools.

Churlish? No, sah...

Do the different situations not require different strategies? Training for a sporting competition will not be the same as training for violent encounters outside the ring. The environment and possible factors couldn't be more different. It would be a mistake to do only sanda training and think one is preparing oneself for that.

And in Shaolin, we do have traditional sparring and fighting drills that are not sanda.

[DCB]

This is the absoloute crux of the matter. The reality appears to be that there's almost no authentic wushu outside of China - and where there is, it is 99% people who have emigrated from mainland China.

What about the people that train under those who emigrated from China? Or those who went to China to learn and the people who train under them?

Are you suggesting that Chinese MA practitioners teach fake Kung Fu to all the stupid foreigners?

On another note the entire idea of comparing traditional martial artists (be they monks or otherwise) to professional ring fighters and professional modern wushu athletes separately really misses the point.

I have no doubt that many professional fighters, when put in a fighting competition, would fare very well against many traditional martial artists. I also have no doubt that their forms look less impressive. The point is that traditional forms are about combat applications whilst modern wushu athletes train just to do something that looks impressive. That's the point of modern wushu, its a formalised display of technical athletic skill not a fighting art. So we could eqaully say the traditionalists look better than the ring fighters and fight better than the performers, its all about your frame of reference.

Now take them out of the ring where there are no rules then the traditionalists have an edge as they'll fight dirty, but most of them can't compare in fitness, power and experience because they can't devote all their time to training like the ring athletes do. Taking it back to Shaolin, they practice for hours every day from childhood, this puts them well above most western ring athletes in experience and fitness. This isn't something special to Shaolin though, thousands of kids in China get put through this these days.

So of course Shaolin monks can fight, of course they can compete with athletes because they have been doing similar things but for longer, with older techniques, less focused on the ring. The point is that most of them don't, not that they can't.

[Kellen Bassette]

That's true that they crank out some excellent athletes for the Olympics. I'm just not sure why they can't do the same for champion fighters. Sanda is pitted against Muay Thai in general, and does well. But we still don't see Chinese champions in the main K-1 tournament.

As you say, we do see some great Sanda/MT match ups, (when they are real and not some strange Taji promotion,) and Thai stylists do very well in K1...perhaps these international competitions don't have as much exposure in China and there's less interest? I'm just guessing...

Furthermore, Kung-Fu does have grappling, so is it just weak grappling? And Japan is where Jiu-Jitsu originated and they have Pride, Shoot Fighting, etc. yet the Japanese still can't match the American & Brazilians in MMA. Granted that Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu revolutionized the ground game of Jujutsu & Judo, but much of BJJ's ground game for these Japanese arts are still there in JJJ & Judo.

I actually think Kung Fu has good grappling, of course you won't find it at the average kwoon that focuses on just forms...but there's a lot of great stuff in Shuai Jiao and Sanda, obviously to function in MMA you need some ground game, but that shouldn't be hard for pro fighters to learn/train...

I wonder about the Japanese thing myself....In Japan they do have the interest, money, backing, to make it work. I can't really say why we aren't getting better fighters from there.

If anything, BJJ is not the dominating force any longer in the UFC, like it was in the early days. Especially with Dana White, aka Mr. Clean...making it very clear that he wants "exciting fights only", which means no pure grab-assers will get too many fights. He wants standup, bloody and KO's. So this should favor the Kung-Fu & Sanda fighters of China. Ground game is still essential, just not as much.

Agree 100%. White seems to be intentionally bringing more exciting standup fighters in and I love it. I think he would be stoked if some Kung Fu version of Machida came through and tore things up, got people re-thinking strategy and adding techniques. Hopefully TUF China will be successful at bringing some real Sanda talent into the UFC.

Lastly, China pumps a ton of money into their sports program to bring national pride in forms of title belts and trophies to their country. Incredible govt' subsidy to Chinese athletes compared to American athletes who are usually, all self funded. Not to mention a lot of money in the top tier UFC fighters. Then there's Boxing, where the most money can be made. Why can't China produce good fighters?

While government funding is great for the athletes, I just don't think the government knows how to produce fighters. If they are putting the wrong coaches in, it isn't going to work...maybe it works for gymnastics, but not in MMA...

Hopefully MMA will get more popular over there and private clubs will get good at it and then get State backing. I'd like to see that.

I'll get flamed for this, but my opinion is that Asians just aren't as good in the fighting game, even though our culture is fully engulfed in chopsocky movies.

Well, I hope this isn't taken the wrong way, but in general, I think there is a genetic strength advantage whites and blacks have over Asians. Obviously lots of individual exceptions and such, but just in general.

I do think Asia can put out great fighters though. Thailand does it all the time, in Muay Thai. Europeans tend to dominate the heavier weight classes, but Thais tend to control the lighter weights, which would be expected.

I spend a fair amount of time in Thailand, and interestingly, at least in the country, there isn't much exposure to MMA. The people I stay with know what it is, but never watch it and don't know the players. They do watch a lot of Muay Thai, western boxing and pro wrestling, however. They know K1, mostly because of Buakaw...

It's unfortunate, because so many big MMA fighters go to Thailand to train their standup, they had some gyms pop up in the big cities, but the government banned MMA fights in Thailand, fearing it would compete with Muay Thai...I think that will be a big loss of talent to the MMA community. It will be much tougher to bring talent from Thailand, if they have to leave the country to fight their first bouts...meanwhile, it's really growing throughout the rest of southeast Asia...

[Miqi]

What about the people that train under those who emigrated from China? Or those who went to China to learn and the people who train under them?

Are you suggesting that Chinese MA practitioners teach fake Kung Fu to all the stupid foreigners?

On another note the entire idea of comparing traditional martial artists (be they monks or otherwise) to professional ring fighters and professional modern wushu athletes separately really misses the point.

I have no doubt that many professional fighters, when put in a fighting competition, would fare very well against many traditional martial artists. I also have no doubt that their forms look less impressive. The point is that traditional forms are about combat applications whilst modern wushu athletes train just to do something that looks impressive. That's the point of modern wushu, its a formalised display of technical athletic skill not a fighting art. So we could eqaully say the traditionalists look better than the ring fighters and fight better than the performers, its all about your frame of reference.

Now take them out of the ring where there are no rules then the traditionalists have an edge as they'll fight dirty, but most of them can't compare in fitness, power and experience because they can't devote all their time to training like the ring athletes do. Taking it back to Shaolin, they practice for hours every day from childhood, this puts them well above most western ring athletes in experience and fitness. This isn't something special to Shaolin though, thousands of kids in China get put through this these days.

So of course Shaolin monks can fight, of course they can compete with athletes because they have been doing similar things but for longer, with older techniques, less focused on the ring. The point is that most of them don't, not that they can't.

Well some people outside of China are ok. I think it's just as simple as China is massive, China is where wushu comes from, and achieving a high level requires time and access to proper teachers. I don't think westerners are cheated - I just think that a small pool of talent goes to China, for short periods, compared to a vast pool that lives there.

As for modern wushu, well of course it has less focus on applications. But the san da training they do is probably more effective than the applications training done in traditional schools. But it's true - although, just because trad schools criticise contemporary wushu schools doesn't mean that trad schools are actually any more fight effective.

As for monks could fight if they wanted to, all martial monks - at least the young ones - do san da training. But except in cases of rare talent, it's not at all true that
they could compete at professional level just because their Shaolin training is so great that it would prepare them for that. Believe that if you want to, though.

[Miqi]

Churlish? No, sah...

Do the different situations not require different strategies? Training for a sporting competition will not be the same as training for violent encounters outside the ring. The environment and possible factors couldn't be more different. It would be a mistake to do only sanda training and think one is preparing oneself for that.

And in Shaolin, we do have traditional sparring and fighting drills that are not sanda.

Well, of course they are two different areas under the umbrella of "martial arts". It's funny though, how such a massive thing is made of these differences, and almost nothing ever said about what it actually feels like to suddenly realise that you are now going to have a fight, for real. And your arse goes, and your legs go, and your mind goes, and you want to run away. In that moment, a good bacground in real san da is going to suddenly become far more valuable than all those churlish arguments about what is usseful for the "street". Whatever might be useful, actually using it is quite another matter.

Anyway - although you are correct, these churlish arguments just distract from ever thinking clearly about self defence. Just because san da isn't deadly JKD no rules combat, doesn't actually mean that JKD krav maga, 'real' shaolin or yiquan are.

[David Jamieson]

Focus on the finger and you lose out on the glory that is the moon.

[LFJ]

In that moment, a good bacground in real san da is going to suddenly become far more valuable than all those churlish arguments about what is usseful for the "street". Whatever might be useful, actually using it is quite another matter.

Huh? Of course that's why we have training.

Anyway - although you are correct, these churlish arguments just distract from ever thinking clearly about self defence. Just because san da isn't deadly JKD no rules combat, doesn't actually mean that JKD krav maga, 'real' shaolin or yiquan are.

I'm not talking about deadly skillz, but just the fact that there needs to be a drastic shift in strategy and tactics with an entirely different environment and reason to be fighting.

If you train to trade legal blows for rounds in a protected environment to win the bout, that's just what you'll be training for. It won't necessarily prepare you for unexpected violent encounters outside of that environment.

Do you say it is better to train for sporting competition than to train to deal with such encounters? Or do you think they will equally prepare you, or it doesn't matter? I say their strategies and tactics are necessarily very different and one won't get far having only trained and developed a sanda competition strategy.

[Miqi]

Focus on the finger and you lose out on the glory that is the moon.

I've grown to hate that saying. It now means precisely the opposite of what it should mean. Actually, we should take a long, hard look at the finger, and who it belongs to. In other words, we should think very carefully about who is attempting to direct our attention, to what, and why.

[Miqi]

Huh? Of course that's why we have training.

Just because you go "training" doesn't mean that you are "prepared". In fact, very little can prepare an average person fro a real fight - except doing things that are as close to it as possible. Even then, it is very difficult to replicate the emotions, fear and physiological responses. Training, say, a low-line leg kick is just technique training - don't ever confuse that with "preparation".

I'm not talking about deadly skillz, but just the fact that there needs to be a drastic shift in strategy and tactics with an entirely different environment and reason to be fighting.

If you train to trade legal blows for rounds in a protected environment to win the bout, that's just what you'll be training for. It won't necessarily prepare you for unexpected violent encounters outside of that environment.

Do you say it is better to train for sporting competition than to train to deal with such encounters? Or do you think they will equally prepare you, or it doesn't matter? I say their strategies and tactics are necessarily very different and one won't get far having only trained and developed a sanda competition strategy.

Well it isn't as cut and dried as this. However, putting on the gloves and knowing you now have to deal with someone who is going to knock you about has a value to it that is worth its weight in self defence classes.

I'm not sure how this relates to Shaolin monks, who do a lot of san da training. I think maybe you are confusing where you train - which I guess calls itself Shaolin - and actual Shaolin monks.

[Jimbo]

I wonder about the Japanese thing myself....In Japan they do have the interest, money, backing, to make it work. I can't really say why we aren't getting better fighters from there.



Well, I hope this isn't taken the wrong way, but in general, I think there is a genetic strength advantage whites and blacks have over Asians. Obviously lots of individual exceptions and such, but just in general.

Regarding why more better fighters don't seem to be coming from Japan, in my observation, there are different factors/possibilities. I think in the past, there was far more interest in MMA in Japan than there is now, at least from a participatory standpoint, as opposed to simply watching/following the sport. I highly doubt there are as many Japanese, per capita, who aspire to become MMA fighters as Westerners. Also, other sports, like baseball and various baseball programs, far exceed MMA in popularity and much more energy is invested into their developmental programs.

I've also noticed that in general (there are exceptions, of course), most Japanese fighters are not as aggressive as Western fighters. Whether most grew up in an environment that didn't foster physical aggression as much, I don't know, but I suspect there may be a 'modern' cultural aspect. I think if MMA fighting were in Japan in earlier decades like the '50s, etc., there may have been that greater aggression.

As far as the physical strength of most Japanese or Asian goes, I'm not certain that's so cut and dried. I still think it goes back to the aggression issue. Asians (and there's wide variation) in general seem comparable to Latin Americans in terms of size and strength. When you do see that ruthless aggression in Asian fighters, it makes a big difference, and sure enough, the strength 'differences' become negligible.

[ShaolinDiva]

People who actually become properly ordained Buddhist monks are doing so for religious reasons, not because they want to become top martiall artists.

It might be that by chance one or two are also gifted martial artists. However, for forms, professional wushu players are far superior to the average Shaolin monk, and for fighting, pro san da fighters are far superior to the average Shaolin monk.

This is inevitable as the pros are selected out of a vast pool of talent and provided with high level training from an early age. Shaolin is more famous for its hard qigong than for the actual high level (relative to others in China) of the monks. Still, the average monk is ridiculously higher level than the average western CMAist who is fond of saying how rubbish they are. It's all a matter of degree.

I don't think this is entirely true. I beg to differ in that the professional wushu forms are far superior and that pro san da fighters are far superior to the average Shaolin monk / warrior monk.

I guess you have not truly been a Shaolin student that have learnt from the traditional shaolin monks who have lived in the actual temple since they were kids. nor have you been in their circle. or know them personally? Or been in the wushu circle or even authentic chinese circle. Have you been to Los Angeles , CA, the mecca of where some of the cats live ? I don't think true Chinese wushu players would ever say that they are better than a Shaolin monk who has lived in the temple. They often times pay great respect to the Shaolin masters. Its a big heavy Chinese tradition to respect them .

Again, not until you know them personally, been taught by them or have had a dinner with them , drive them around town, felt their qi , their power , can you say you know the difference. True Shaolin has a Chan(Zen) Buddhist element to it. If they don't , then you should question their authencity of Shaolin.

[LFJ]

Just because you go "training" doesn't mean that you are "prepared".

Sure, but don't suggest these are just meaningless arguments. There is a point I'm trying to get across.

Well it isn't as cut and dried as this. However, putting on the gloves and knowing you now have to deal with someone who is going to knock you about has a value to it that is worth its weight in self defence classes.

You can gear fight training toward a sportive end or a more realistic purpose. For me, the restrictive format of sporting competition will train unwanted habits and the wrong strategy. The sparring in Shaolin is not just sanda. That's for the competitions. We do sparring and fight drills in a less restrictive format.

I'm not sure how this relates to Shaolin monks, who do a lot of san da training. I think maybe you are confusing where you train - which I guess calls itself Shaolin - and actual Shaolin monks.

I confuse Shaolin with Shaolin? Shaolin does tend to call itself Shaolin though...

[gunbeatskroty]

So, in other words, you're just guessing and don't really know anything about what actually took place...

Educated guess and also based on what's written about the Cultural Revolution and how the Shaolin Temple was shut down. Obviously I wasn't there, duh?

As for fighting, different situations require different strategies. Would you disagree? In a lot of situations outside the ring, pure sanda strategy and tactics pulled out as is won't cut it. One can be a champion fighter in sporting competitions and still not fare so well outside. It is not the be all and end all.

I already told you, punching you in the face to knock you the F out, works anywhere and is certainly better than someone who trains at pretend-fighting and never even sparred hard in trying to KO their partner and vice versa.