Are there real Shaolin Monks?

[Miqi]

I don't think this is entirely true. I beg to differ in that the professional wushu forms are far superior and that pro san da fighters are far superior to the average Shaolin monk / warrior monk.

I guess you have not truly been a Shaolin student that have learnt from the traditional shaolin monks who have lived in the actual temple since they were kids. nor have you been in their circle. or know them personally? Or been in the wushu circle or even authentic chinese circle. Have you been to Los Angeles , CA, the mecca of where some of the cats live ? I don't think true Chinese wushu players would ever say that they are better than a Shaolin monk who has lived in the temple. They often times pay great respect to the Shaolin masters. Its a big heavy Chinese tradition to respect them .

Again, not until you know them personally, been taught by them or have had a dinner with them , drive them around town, felt their qi , their power , can you say you know the difference. True Shaolin has a Chan(Zen) Buddhist element to it. If they don't , then you should question their authencity of Shaolin.

UAnfortunately, it is very difficult to make an honest assessment of people you feel loyal to. Actually, it's quite insulting to say that Shaolin monks are superior to professional wushu athletes.

[Miqi]

Sure, but don't suggest these are just meaningless arguments. There is a point I'm trying to get across.

The difference between sport and self defence is not meaningless. But I'm not convinced by people who think that just because what they do isn't sport, that it is therefore better than sport. It might actually be much worse.

You can gear fight training toward a sportive end or a more realistic purpose. For me, the restrictive format of sporting competition will train unwantm noted habits and the wrong strategy. The sparring in Shaolin is not just sanda. That's for the competitions. We do sparring and fight drills in a less restrictive format.

Well this can be true. Everything depends on the practicalities of what you actually do train. Still, I'm not sure I'd bet on you, against Liu Hai Long, in a street fight, any time soon.

I confuse Shaolin with Shaolin? Shaolin does tend to call itself Shaolin though...

Ah well - we're getting to it now, aren't we? Where do you train?

[gunbeatskroty]

Churlish? No, sah...

Do the different situations not require different strategies? Training for a sporting competition will not be the same as training for violent encounters outside the ring. The environment and possible factors couldn't be more different. It would be a mistake to do only sanda training and think one is preparing oneself for that.

And in Shaolin, we do have traditional sparring and fighting drills that are not sanda.

Who's training is more effective? Someone who pretends to kick someone in the nuts and pretend to eye gouge OR someone who regular trains by actually knocking their partners the F out and obviously also strive for such KO's in the ring? Is 2 to 10 knees & elbows to your face real enough that's just standard in Muay Thai or MMA?

Do you think a trained fighter can't target nutsacks and eyeballs because their such amazing techniques? Do you even spar full contact, striking at 100% at all? You know, trying to KO your partner? BJJ does every class (no strikes) but a simple choke hold is a death move...10-15 more seconds held on longer and someone can die. While Muay Thai spars hard sometimes and regularly with the fight team. Boxing gyms spars hard almost all of the time.

Your deathmatch training really explains why whenever I visit these "real" self defense schools such as Kung-Fu, Krav Maga, etc. they do all sorts of cool, choreographed moves. Then when it's sparring time (sometimes they don't even spar), they can't even get pass my jab and I light them all up, even while they're wearing those ridiculous motorcycle helmets as headgear. I can probably beat most of them with 1 hand + footwork. Then I get called out by name and warned about not going too hard at least 2-5x in each places. I wasn't even going hard, other than the jabs. None of the instructors spars me, but I'm also not there to disrespect them.

[pazman]

We do sparring and fight drills in a less restrictive format.

Care to give examples?

[Kellen Bassette]

I've also noticed that in general (there are exceptions, of course), most Japanese fighters are not as aggressive as Western fighters. Whether most grew up in an environment that didn't foster physical aggression as much, I don't know, but I suspect there may be a 'modern' cultural aspect. I think if MMA fighting were in Japan in earlier decades like the '50s, etc., there may have been that greater aggression.

You may be right on that. I've noticed they tend to be less aggressive as well; and I'm sure that would be disadvantageous. It does seem like the Latin American fighters, more often than not tend to be more aggressive than Asian fighters. As you say, Asia is a big place and lot's of difference between individuals, just in general...

[Kellen Bassette]

Of course there are some very high level monks - but it doesn't make sense to think that some voluntary amateurs will be higher level than professionals selected from a billion people for their exceptional talent, and provided with the best coaching and resources in the world. Of course, you could argue that the monks are more traditional, and therefore better. I rather think that that is a specious argument, for various reasons.

Maybe you could clarify a bit? Sometimes you mention pro Wushu players and other times pro Sanda fighters. These are two very different things. Comparing them is apples and oranges, but so is comparing the wushu forms guy to a traditional Gong Fu practitioner.

Sure the wushu pro would have better gymnastics and prettier form, but this isn't what the traditional guy is trying to accomplish. If the wushu player has little to no application training, sparring or practical partner drills, how can we say he is better than the traditionalist who does all those things? They are practicing different means to different ends.

Now if we are talking fighting ability, one would expect the Sanda pro to prevail. One would also expect the wushu performer to fair poorly.

[gunbeatskroty]

I think he would be stoked if some Kung Fu version of Machida came through and tore things up, got people re-thinking strategy and adding techniques. Hopefully TUF China will be successful at bringing some real Sanda talent into the UFC.

Funny, it seems that MMA is making a full circle back to TMA from being only Muay Thai + BJJ for so long and now we see Machida's Karate as well as many spinning back kicks, spinning hook kicks, etc. knocking fighters out. Granted that these techs do exist in Muay Thai, just not trained as much. It's really exciting. Although I can't stand watching Machida, incredibly boring...but I do fight like him.

Well, I hope this isn't taken the wrong way, but in general, I think there is a genetic strength advantage whites and blacks have over Asians. Obviously lots of individual exceptions and such, but just in general.

Genetics is exactly what I meant too. There are exceptions, such as big, strong Asians....but for such exceptions, there are tons more of similarly big and strong Blacks, Whites, etc.

I do think Asia can put out great fighters though. Thailand does it all the time, in Muay Thai. Europeans tend to dominate the heavier weight classes, but Thais tend to control the lighter weights, which would be expected.

That's true. They don't play around with their Muay Thai. Which brings me back to China. Seems like the Chinese aren't as serious about their Kung-Fu as the Thais are about their MT. And most of the Shaolin Kung-Fu demonstrations, are just that, demos....but not producing champion fighters. Again, back to the national pride thing...it's big for any country, but more so for Communists and poorer countries.

I spend a fair amount of time in Thailand, and interestingly, at least in the country, there isn't much exposure to MMA.

I've read something about how the the Thai government doesn't encourage MMA and such mandates trickles down to fight venues, promoters, gyms, regulations, etc. There are MMA training facilities there though. But I think the biggest factor is that MMA's ground game will, in general, destroy a pure standup Nak Muay. Not saying that a highly trained MT champ can't pick up grappling relatively fast and be effective with it, but just that often times, they're very prideful and thinks they can KO grapplers before they get taken down. Boxing champs have this problem too when they enter K-1 w/o knowing how to address kicks, then it's worse when they try Boxing only in MMA.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EDjE4BywrE4

but the government banned MMA fights in Thailand, fearing it would compete with Muay Thai..

Wow, so it's true.

[Miqi]

Maybe you could clarify a bit? Sometimes you mention pro Wushu players and other times pro Sanda fighters. These are two very different things. Comparing them is apples and oranges, but so is comparing the wushu forms guy to a traditional Gong Fu practitioner.

Sure the wushu pro would have better gymnastics and prettier form, but this isn't what the traditional guy is trying to accomplish. If the wushu player has little to no application training, sparring or practical partner drills, how can we say he is better than the traditionalist who does all those things? They are practicing different means to different ends.

Now if we are talking fighting ability, one would expect the Sanda pro to prevail. One would also expect the wushu performer to fair poorly.

Part of the confusion is that martial Shaolin monks usually do san da and forms training - so I am comparing their levels at both with the equivalent of pro san da and pro forms. Actually, most traditional moves are in modern wushu - just usually done much better, faster, more powerful, or in more advanced versions.

As per traditional schools, training applications isn't superior to anything if those applications aren't actually any use, and if they aren't trained in a way that leads to fight efficiency. So, as Zhao Dao Xin said, just because they criticise modern wushu doesn't mean that they have real skill. I'm not saying they don't - don't get me wrong, I really like trad wushu. But a pro nan quan player is probably going to destroy an amateur traditional guy any day of the week, because his actual skill is higher, he's fitter, stronger etc. But that's a big generalisation - there will be trad guys who are awesome, obviously.

[gunbeatskroty]

Taking it back to Shaolin, they practice for hours every day from childhood, this puts them well above most western ring athletes in experience and fitness. This isn't something special to Shaolin though, thousands of kids in China get put through this these days.

I enjoy you post, very sensible.

Check these out:

Shaolin Kung-Fu 6 year old from China: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L0ryYUrgbV8

Shaolin Kung-Fu 6 year old from Texas: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j-F2mPAU7qM

MMA Kid about 6 years old from USA: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cp_oj3vXjrA

Muay Thai Kids in full contact ring fight (about 8 years old, maybe more) from Thailand: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QpxVQ-S_XIM

Wresling 7 year old USA champ: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pVCegcfWXp8

Hungry kids in the ghettos of Thailand or anywhere have very little options. I really don't see any edge that the Shaolin Temple has over others. If anything, the Chinese Wu-Shu/Sanda teams are much more competent fighters and do produce decent enough fighters to give the Thais a run for their money in K-1, but that's about it....not Shaolin.

[Kellen Bassette]

Funny, it seems that MMA is making a full circle back to TMA from being only Muay Thai + BJJ for so long and now we see Machida's Karate as well as many spinning back kicks, spinning hook kicks, etc. knocking fighters out. Granted that these techs do exist in Muay Thai, just not trained as much. It's really exciting. Although I can't stand watching Machida, incredibly boring...but I do fight like him.

The truth is, the various techniques and strategies do work, when applied appropriately...what MMA exposed wasn't so much ineffective systems as ineffective training methods.

[Kellen Bassette]

Part of the confusion is that martial Shaolin monks usually do san da and forms training - so I am comparing their levels at both with the equivalent of pro san da and pro forms. Actually, most traditional moves are in modern wushu - just usually done much better, faster, more powerful, or in more advanced versions.

Yes, often it is even difficult to tell if they are based in modern wushu, TCMA or sanda, when you see the performances...although I try not to think of Shaolin demos when I think of "traditional."

As per traditional schools, training applications isn't superior to anything if those applications aren't actually any use, and if they aren't trained in a way that leads to fight efficiency. So, as Zhao Dao Xin said, just because they criticise modern wushu doesn't mean that they have real skill.

This of course, is the big problem in TCMA, when the application isn't trained for practical use and the training goal is unclear....Of course they're are plenty that do train well too....I've said in this forum before a wushu player who understands what he is training for and what his goals are is better than a traditionalist that isn't sure if he's training for combat, competition or performance. I think knowing what your working towards is paramount.

[MarathonTmatt]

Who's training is more effective? Someone who pretends to kick someone in the nuts and pretend to eye gouge OR someone who regular trains by actually knocking their partners the F out and obviously also strive for such KO's in the ring? Is 2 to 10 knees & elbows to your face real enough that's just standard in Muay Thai or MMA?

Do you think a trained fighter can't target nutsacks and eyeballs because their such amazing techniques? Do you even spar full contact, striking at 100% at all? You know, trying to KO your partner? BJJ does every class (no strikes) but a simple choke hold is a death move...10-15 more seconds held on longer and someone can die. While Muay Thai spars hard sometimes and regularly with the fight team. Boxing gyms spars hard almost all of the time.

Your deathmatch training really explains why whenever I visit these "real" self defense schools such as Kung-Fu, Krav Maga, etc. they do all sorts of cool, choreographed moves. Then when it's sparring time (sometimes they don't even spar), they can't even get pass my jab and I light them all up, even while they're wearing those ridiculous motorcycle helmets as headgear. I can probably beat most of them with 1 hand + footwork. Then I get called out by name and warned about not going too hard at least 2-5x in each places. I wasn't even going hard, other than the jabs. None of the instructors spars me, but I'm also not there to disrespect them.

You have good points. I agree with you here. A lot of professional fighters would know/ be proficient in techniques not allowed in the ring.
But- to defend Kung Fu (I have only trained TCMA for some years) I would say that personally I have enough striking power in a vertical punch to kill somebody if I hit them in say, the solar plexis. And my strikes are fast, accurate and on target, when I land them.
Or what about a Phoenix elbow to the throat? Or single whip technique from Yang Tai Ji that is a one-hit knock-out. Although I have never trained to fight professionally these are all techniques I have been able to apply in spontaneous sparring (light contact of course) even to people who were sometimes faster than me (takedowns work to my advantage a lot when this is the case.) When I train power I hit a bag or train fa-jing-like in the air.
There is one technique I also know that steps behind the person (using a tai ji transition step) and can snap somebodies neck- that technique has come out in my sparring too.
I always cringe when people think TCMA doesn't work for the street/ or in a "real fight". Also I am more aware of my surroundings and have good angles, and am able to slip thru multiple people at the same time in a crowded area- that's also good practical training for the real thing.
I have a lot to thank for my Tai Ji push hands lessons and sparring. Maybe someone with just sparring and no push hands not as good? (I know that would be the case for me at least.)
Also I would say that not everyone who trains Kung Fu is going to want to be a professional fighter... but peoples motives for training and skill level are indeed different. I would say how much drive does the person have and how much they desire to learn will be a big motivating factor (versus a week-end warrior.) Anyway, that's enough about me for now. Just thought I would give this piece a twist of this perspective. Hopefully when I am an old man my grand-kids will look to how cool I am when they see me train Kung Fu. (hell, I need kids first, though, lol- awe- I'm still young!)

[gunbeatskroty]

The truth is, the various techniques and strategies do work, when applied appropriately...what MMA exposed wasn't so much ineffective systems as ineffective training methods.

That's a good point. Although certain techniques are still way too risky and there are inferior techniques. But partly due to the rules of MMA, but MMA is still the closest to an all out fight to the death that's legal in America. Like someone with exceptional talents and athleticism like Anderson Silva or John Jones, can pull off a wild Capoeira move and KO someone, but it's still not the recommended base for anyone by a long stretch. And such techniques more likely can work in low level amateur fights....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e0KfQE2-ZqA

[LFJ]

Who's training is more effective? Someone who pretends to kick someone in the nuts and pretend to eye gouge OR someone who regular trains by actually knocking their partners the F out and obviously also strive for such KO's in the ring?...

...Do you think a trained fighter can't target nutsacks and eyeballs because their such amazing techniques?

You seem to have not been following the conversation. Where did anyone make such a suggestion as an alternative? You're speaking against poor arguments and negative experiences you seem to have had at bad schools, rather than what I've actually been saying. I never suggested any sort of deadly techniques. So I'm not sure what you're on about here.

[LFJ]

The difference between sport and self defence is not meaningless. But I'm not convinced by people who think that just because what they do isn't sport, that it is therefore better than sport. It might actually be much worse.

That wasn't my argument at all, but whatever.

Ah well - we're getting to it now, aren't we? Where do you train?

Although I live in China but haven't been back over there in a while, I learned Shaolin in Songshan.