Are there real Shaolin Monks?

[LFJ]

Care to give examples?

Sparring without restrictive rules and without gloves so that anything can be worked, against sudden additional attackers, practical weapons, in different environments, small spaces, etc. and nonstop, being forced to fight through the pain of groin shots for example, stopping to reset only after reaching a 'kill point'.

Sparring with sanda rules doesn't put you under such stress and give you the necessary strategy to deal with it. You may be very skilled at moving around in circles, feeling out your opponent, and exchanging blows for rounds and doing things that don't take illegal responses into account. You may be a champion at that and have knocked out many opponents in the ring, but there will be situations where you can't use it and won't know how to defend yourself if that's all you rely on and think you are prepared.

[Miqi]

Sparring without restrictive rules and without gloves so that anything can be worked, against sudden additional attackers, practical weapons, in different environments, small spaces, etc. and nonstop, being forced to fight through the pain of groin shots for example, stopping to reset only after reaching a 'kill point'.

There is a great deal of video footage of people training in the wushu schools aroung Songshan - but none showing anything like what you describe here.

[LFJ]

There is a great deal of video footage of people training in the wushu schools aroung Songshan - but none showing anything like what you describe here.

Would you expect there to be?

[Miqi]

Would you expect there to be?

No. I expect there to be a long series of posts all about how this is all too secret and deadly to film, and how these people don't have anything to prove, ... etc.

[LFJ]

No. I expect there to be a long series of posts all about how this is all too secret and deadly to film, and how these people don't have anything to prove, ... etc.

Nope. Just a short post about how most schools there are just into performance and competition.

[Miqi]

Nope. Just a short post about how most schools there are just into performance and competition.

But we were talking about Shaolin monks, from Shaolin temple. Are you telling me that the school you are talking about is Shaolin Temple itself? Or another school? If so which one, and what is its relationship to Shaolin monks.

[LFJ]

I always trained with Shi Deyang who's school used to be a reserve base for the warrior monks, originally located right behind the monastery. Of course his school like others there, had a touring performance group and trained forms and sanda for tournaments as a means to make ends meet. That's also what most visiting foreigners were interested in.

With thousands of students at the many commercial schools now training for the same purpose, it's no wonder you only see what you do. But there are other non-commercial places around Songshan not so burdened that train in a more practical manner and that have centuries-long relationships with Shaolin Monastery.

[Miqi]

I always trained with Shi Deyang who's school used to be a reserve base for the warrior monks, originally located right behind the monastery. Of course his school like others there, had a touring performance group and trained forms and sanda for tournaments as a means to make ends meet. That's also what most visiting foreigners were interested in.

With thousands of students at the many commercial schools now training for the same purpose, it's no wonder you only see what you do. But there are other non-commercial places around Songshan not so burdened that train in a more practical manner and that have centuries-long relationships with Shaolin Monastery.

So, we have a name. By pointlessly defending the indefensible, you now have to be asked, in what way does this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JqMPWE76KOs

Represent a higher level than this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MUd6-KK7mn4

Or these to pro forms players I just picked at random. People should particularly note how much more powerful and technically better pro nan quan players are than a great many “traditional” stylists who slag them off.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wuBuw22rZVI

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-uZE6TWGmAs

It may be that in secret - as these things seemingly always are - Shaolin is more deadly. But in public, like for like, it’s not a patch on this kind of thing.

It's a shame that this had to be articulated so crudely. It would have been wiser just to accept the truth in the first place, and leave folk wushu as what it is -folk wushu - just like most of us do without ever claiming parity with top Chinese champions.

[LFJ]

I don't know if you are even serious at this point, because you ignored my explanation regarding sport wushu vs traditional forms and begrudgingly conceded my point about sanda training already. So...

[Miqi]

I don't know if you are even serious at this point, because you ignored my explanation regarding sport wushu vs traditional forms and begrudgingly conceded my point about sanda training already. So...

So let's just cut through the BS. Plainly enough, Shi De Yang's level isn't as high - or even close to being in the same league - as professionals (well duh). But, according to you, he practices secret deadly skills which renders all of that moot. I guess he just does those forms as a veil, to make us think that that's what he's been training.

The sad thing about this is that your ill considered boasting on behalf of another who, from my experience, probaby wouldn't ever have said such a thing himself, has meant we've had to draw out into the open that a folk wushu player isn't really professional level - rather than just enjoying folk wushu for what it is. Well done for that.

[Miqi]

because you ignored my explanation regarding sport wushu vs traditional forms..

You didn't offer an explanation, you just peddled the same old lie that traditional forms are more fight focussed. That's just a reiteration of your fantasy, not actual new information. Seems to me any pro nan quan guy looks - considerably - stronger, more powerful, more athletic and profoundly more technically skilled than the average monk, or indeed, one you care to name, such as Shi De Yan. Those are all objectively viewable characteristics. No wonder - and no surprise - is that your comeback is "secret skills". Surely everyone's aware of what a cop out that old chestnut is by now?

[LFJ]

I don't even know what your talking about, attacking points that have never been made and ignoring the ones that have. But whatever... I almost thought you were interested in actual discussion.

[Miqi]

I don't even know what your talking about, attacking points that have never been made and ignoring the ones that have. But whatever... I almost thought you were interested in actual discussion.

Well you were mistaken. I'm telling you the way it is, not negotiating with you for some way in which you can still retain your fantasy. My points is very simple:

Shaolin monks, save perhaps for some occasional special cases, simply do not have a technical level that is in anyway comparable to professional wushu or professional san da players.

I might also now add that I simply don't believe your claims that secretly they are training in super deadly special skills, taking it to the "death point", and so are actually super duper better than their public performances would suggest. I think you just made that up by over-stating the self defence and rough sparring training that they do. And you did that because it can always be a secret that can never be disproven.

[LFJ]

Never made such a claim.

[Kellen Bassette]

That's a good point. Although certain techniques are still way too risky and there are inferior techniques.

No doubt, but we are seeing some of these techniques attempted and even landing at high levels. As I'm so fond of pointing out, I remember when front kick and low round kick were widely considered the only practical kicks for MMA. The last several years has destroyed that conventional wisdom and the majority of the arsenal of kicks from TMA has now been showcased successfully in pro MMA, with increasing regularity...

In 2000 we would have been amazed to see fighters using cross kick, low side kick, spinning heel, ect in the UFC...now it's just any other show....MMA is still evolving and much of that evolution is rethinking discarded traditional tactics.