Who is the biggest fraud in Chinese martial arts?

[YouKnowWho]

What if teacher is 80 years old?

That's why a good teacher should be able to prove to all his students that by following his teaching method, his students can maintain their combat ability through their old age.

Old Chinese saying said, "If you want to know how your wife will look like 20 years from now, go to see how her mother looks like today."

[David Jamieson]

That's why a good teacher should be able to prove to all his students that by following his teaching method, his students can maintain their combat ability through their old age.

Old Chinese saying said, "If you want to know how your wife will look like 20 years from now, go to see how her mother looks like today."

That's a lot to expect from an old man. Kung Fu master or not, reality dictates that you grow frail, weak, then die. This truth confronts us all.

Plus to illustrate, my wife looks nothing at all like her mother and instead carries the features form her fathers side of the family.

In short, you show me an 80 year old that presents a legitimate physical threat to you or me and I'll show you a 350 pound fat lady acing out on parallel bars. IE: it's possible, but I doubt it.

[YouKnowWho]

When I'm 80, I still want to be able to do this:

http://imageshack.us/a/img199/3853/mayintu.jpg

instead of only to do this:

http://imageshack.us/a/img829/6677/yiquan.jpg

I know! I know! May be I should look for "inner peace" at this point of my life. I'm just not the "inner peace" type of person and I can't pretend that I'm.

[YouKnowWho]

I think it important to be honest to your students:

- I have tried these techniques in combat.
- But I have not tried these techniques in combat. I would love to hear your personal result after you have tested it yourself.

[Psycho Mantis]

Cus D'Amato

[Scott R. Brown]

To me, there won't be any problem. If I just let my teacher to beat me up several times, I can learn from how he beats me up. To me, that will be the best lesson that I can have.

Until he cripples you and gives you brain damage from the beating, then you won't even know what you have gained......or lost!!

Great fighters win fights.

Great teachers have students that win fights.

Bill Belichek never played football past highschool, but he's been to 5 Superbowls as a head coach.

Mike Singletary was one the greateast linebackers of all time. He utterly failed at coaching a team (49ers) that, under a new head coach, just went to the Superbowl.

Which brings me to my favorite example: Bella Karolyi.

He isn't even a girl, has never done any of the apparatuses and coaches many of Americas top female gymnasts!

You don't have to be able to do it, just understand it and communicate it to your students.

[Golden Arms]

Originally Posted by MasterKiller View Post
Great fighters win fights.

Great teachers have students that win fights.

Bill Belichek never played football past highschool, but he's been to 5 Superbowls as a head coach.

Mike Singletary was one the greateast linebackers of all time. He utterly failed at coaching a team (49ers) that, under a new head coach, just went to the Superbowl.

Which brings me to my favorite example: Bella Karolyi.

He isn't even a girl, has never done any of the apparatuses and coaches many of Americas top female gymnasts!

You don't have to be able to do it, just understand it and communicate it to your students.

Wow, these may just be some of the most clear and intelligent posts I have ever seen posted in a martial arts forum. Great examples, this should be required reading.

[Scott R. Brown]

Wow, these may just be some of the most clear and intelligent posts I have ever seen posted in a martial arts forum. Great examples, this should be required reading.

Accidents happen to the best of us! I am sure you will recover nicely!

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

Who is the biggest Chinese martial arts fraud ever? I think that it has been pretty clearly established that it is Chung Moo Quan.

They claim 80% of thier stuff is Chinese Kung Fu...and I have yet to see bigger frauds.

Additionally, when it all went to court, it was the biggest Tax Fraud case in Illinois history...and this is a state where 92% of all our living, former governors are convicted felons serving time....

[omarthefish]

YKW....Mr. YKW....

I gotta say....your view on this is incredibly Chinese. It's a prejudcie that, to be honest, I think has done massive damage to CMA in general. I think CMA may be the only avocation in the entire world where there is such a deep conflation between teaching ability and doing ability.

A few others have summed up the western perspective well enough I see no reason to put it out there again. Psychomantis felt so strongly about it he broke his "code of silence" and made his very first post on the forum to link to the example I personally usually give to show how absurd this stance is. MasterKiller provided several other examples.

Since I live and train in China, it's one of the things that grinds on me on a regular basis: teaching skill =/= doing skill.

As an actual teaching by profession, (ESL, not MA), the point is even more brutal. Quite frankly, even though I speak English at native speaker level, heck, even high for native speaker, it has taken me another 10 years of practice to become an even mediocre English teacher. Sadly (for the students anyways) I get a pass because of this absurd Chinese prejudice that "doing ability" = "teaching ability". I speak vastly better English than any of the local teachers so, therefore I must be a better teacher? <-----an absolute freaking joke.

Teaching and doing are completely different skills.

In closing:

But we need to have "faith" to even start something. If a teacher wants to teach me "death touch". I want to see what he can do first. All my life, I don't believe in words. I only believe my own eyes.

As a westerner, your conclusion doesn't follow it's premise. It is completely irrelevant if the teacher can do such things. As MK already pointed out, if students of the teacher can do them, that is vastly better proof than if the teacher can do them.

[bawang]

Who is the biggest Chinese martial arts fraud ever? I think that it has been pretty clearly established that it is Chung Moo Quan.

They claim 80% of thier stuff is Chinese Kung Fu...and I have yet to see bigger frauds.

Additionally, when it all went to court, it was the biggest Tax Fraud case in Illinois history...and this is a state where 92% of all our living, former governors are convicted felons serving time....

you still havent got over chung moo quan. your new cult is shaolin.

[YouKnowWho]

your view on this is incredibly Chinese. It's a prejudcie that, to be honest, I think has done massive damage to CMA in general.

I can accept "Chinese" because I'm a Chinese. But both "prejudice" and "damage to CMA in general" are quite strong words. Please explain.

[omarthefish]

Sure thing.

It's a Chinese prejudice. And "prejudice" is not such a strong word unless you make it as such. My guess is that misunderstood my meaning to be associated with the negative idea, "racial prejudice". I meant no such thing.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/prejudice?s=t

2.any preconceived opinion or feeling, either favorable or unfavorable.

The preconceived opinion or feeling that a persons's ability to do something, is directly proportionate to their ability to teach that same thing extremely common in China and especially within the CMA community.

This particular prejudice is, by comparison, extremely rare in most other endevours. It's downright rare, IMHO, in western culture. Teacher's are evaluated based on their students. Gymnastics coaches brag about what champion ships their students have won. Nobody hardly ever even bothers to ask what the teacher has personally won. Often we look to see if they are good with children. Do they sincerely care about their students and are their teaching methodologies proven. Same with music teachers or even choosing University programs. American colleges and Universities brag about who went to school there first and who taught there second.

So that's for prejudice.

The damage comes from the fact that by valuing personal achievement of teachers rather than achievement of their students, skilled MA'ists who can teach are given a free pass because of their achievements as performers/fighters. Furthermore, there are tons of potentially brilliant, world class coaches who get shut out because they were not great fighters themselves. Just look at the examples provide on this thread from boxing, football and gymnatics who, under the Chinese system, would never even be given a chance.

As a teacher, I see it as bad pedagogy. The entire premise of what makes a good teacher is flawed and real teaching skill is undervalued. If poor teachers are always being promoted and great teachers remain in the shadows, then naturally the overall talent pool will suffer.

To summarize:

1. Personal achievement in a field is of only limited relevance to the ability to teach well in that field.
2. My experience of CMA is that the exact opposite belief is typical, especially in Chinese culture.
3. This prejudice reduces the average quality of instruction in CMA.

[LaterthanNever]

ok I concede..


THIS* is my real instructor. As he eloquently states: "Kung Fu is bullsh-t"!

And yeah..he held back from 2.01 to 2.26 sec

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3CGMWlXosp4

Long live AMERIDOTE!!!

[YouKnowWho]

The damage comes from the fact that by valuing personal achievement of teachers rather than achievement of their students,

I do agree that an above average teacher may produce good students. The strongest SC team is Taiwan, their instructor had never won any national title. But we are talking about "general" skill and not "special" skill. This is why I used the "lighting skill" and "death touch" as examples. I just don't believe a teacher without those skills can produce students to have those skills.

I can only speak for my personal experience. My daughter started to become a

- part time "pole dance" instructor after she had won the 2010 California pole dance champ.
- full time "pole dance" instructor after she had won the 2011 US pole dance champ.

She won the 2nd place in US last year 2012. So far I have not be able to see what kind of students that she may produce.

By the way I do need some help on this year event.

http://polechampionship.com/competit.../natasha-wang/