Tai Zu Chang Quan - info?

[Sal Canzonieri]

well, we compared and contrasted a lot of Shaolin sets so far and solved some mysteries and found some new ones that need solving, so here's another one:

Tai Zu Chang Quan sets are a great mystery to just about every Chinese Martial Arts researcher, etc.

Starting with videos, there's all these styles and not much known how they are inter-related:

Shaolin Tai-Zu Chang Quan (the most famous set, NONE of these are the real internal way to do this set):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bg0AHeYAfWM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L_Xr5gFC7Iw (famed Liang Yiquan shown)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3QFJQqdeLVk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=slkayimZ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1XnpXLJS50g (where is complete clip of this?)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pw1lebnmM1Q
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Ap1Ee9ftPY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aZkQ5qp5nHw (crap modern way)

The Taiwan version of Taizu Chang Quan (which comes from Shandong province originally):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hPcXE6pCgY4 (Li Mao Ching shown doing the Yi Lu set)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yHcfGCujcXs (Yi Lu)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZS2TEe (Yi Lu)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OkSRNTuIslo (Yi Lu)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b9IKX9Jk2F8 (Er Lu - best I've seen)
http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XNjc0MzMwMDg=.html (non Youtube version)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rrxfq6inTTY (Er Lu)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qb1znn33EJM (Er Lu, but changed much)

Gao Dao Sheng Long Fist Mantis Taizu Chang Quan Er Lu (also originally from Shandong):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t8JJ76Fjl70 (Er Lu TZ Chang Quan)

The Harbin (Manchuria) Taizu Chang Quan (which came from Shandong originally as well):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NkoWAo3yWeo (Yi Lu)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lrJ7d3pI9-g (Er Lu)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qNO2zO (both Yi Lu & Er Lu)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_cWZHi6mJNI (Yi Lu)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TfNg6K26Br0 (Er Lu)

The Taizu Men style (also Shandong):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z2ZoGTBjJJE (6 Sections Fist)

The Lin Xian Rui 林宪瑞 Taizu Chang Quan lineage (anyone with some info?):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3B8Ed1-xIUY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HqUt9rt32hk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u4zI7DNKsoU (a TZ Rou Quan set)


Odd Taizu Quan sets:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Z6lbcuv9kA (Small Frame TZ Chang Quan)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=omma4O17peI

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2AlB-MFWhJQ

[Royal Dragon]

Sal, would you be able to name all the sets that are specifically known to have come directly from Zhao Kuang Yin?

So far I know of

1.The 36 posture set from Shanxii
2.Lao Hong Quan from Shaolin
3.Guandong's form found at Shaolin and Wudang
4.Guanxi form?
5. 13 famous spear

Everything else, he was either known to have practiced, but were not actualy taught by him like his Monkey set that Shaolin got from another source, or the Six Stance Fist, or the sets were actually created by someone else, like the Da Hong Quan being from his notes, and the original Shaolin 32 being from the monks based on the Generals he sent there to teach.

Do you know of any more sets that Zhao personally taught besids the ones above?

[Royal Dragon]

I know that this

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t8JJ76Fjl70

is the Er Lu to this one.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hPcXE6pCgY4

Some lines only have the Yilu though. Some I have spoken to are not aware that there even is an Erlu to it.

[LFJ]

5. Shaolin 13 spear

the spear set from zhao kuangyin is called "13 famous spear" (shísān míngqiāng, 十三名枪), which is different than the shaolin "13 spear" (shísānqiāng, 十三枪) set.

[Royal Dragon]

Ahh, ok then, I thought they were the same set. I will edit my post, thanks!!

[Royal Dragon]

This is the Shaolin 13 spear, not the 13 famous Spear of Zhao Kuang Yin?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SELZ13V9bT8

[LFJ]

This is the Shaolin 13 spear, not the 13 famous Spear of Zhao Kuang Yin?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SELZ13V9bT8

yes, thats the common shaolin 13 spear.

the 13 famous spear set attributed to zhao is shown in the shaolin encyclopedia. its quite a bit different.

[Royal Dragon]

The Shaolin Encyclopedia is only in Chinese right?

[LFJ]

yup. all it says is the 13 famous spear set was given to the monks by zhao kuangyin during his time visiting famous masters there. then it shows the set, which is very different from the 13 spear set.

[Royal Dragon]

Does it say when he was there visiting the famous masters? Was this before, or after he acsended the throne?

[Sal Canzonieri]

I know that this

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t8JJ76Fjl70

is the Er Lu to this one.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hPcXE6pCgY4

Some lines only have the Yilu though. Some I have spoken to are not aware that there even is an Erlu to it.

No, not at all, this is the Er Lu to that Yi Lu (they are from the same schools):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b9IKX9Jk2F8

[Sal Canzonieri]

Does it say when he was there visiting the famous masters? Was this before, or after he acsended the throne?

In the history section of these volumes, it says he was there before he was emperor, when he was on his way north.

[Sal Canzonieri]

Sal, would you be able to name all the sets that are specifically known to have come directly from Zhao Kuang Yin? Do you know of any more sets that Zhao personally taught besides the ones above?

Well, this is a complicated question, as people aren't sure which sets were from him directly or not. So, I will address all of the TaiZu Quan sets that I have any information on. Plus, it is the Hong Quan styles are very much inter-related to the Taizu Chang Quan styles, especially since the Zhao family was said to practice Hong Quan being from the Luoyang / Kaifeng area.

1 - Shaolin Taizu Chang Quan - Contrary to popular belief, the famous Shaolin Taizu Chang Quan was not exactly created by him, they only took one of his techniques (1 of 18 different masters), which was Lifting Hands. Fu Ju was commissioned in 961 by Emperor Zhao Kuangyin to create a standardized set of material to prove that a person had been trained at Shaolin. (Note: Song era Fu-Ju was not of the Shaolin Chan religious order that is now traced down from Yuan Dynasty Abbott Fu Yu. “Not all the monks that resided at Shaolin during imperial times were of the same dharma lineage.” (from the book, The Dragons of Shanghai). Fu-Ju was a military monk trainer.) Zhao appointed General Gao Huailiang to reside in the temple to teach and learn. Gao oversaw head martial monk Fu Ju's work in developing Shaolin sets from interacting with these 18 masters.
The first set they developed was the Taizu Chang Quan, which has 32 Postures and 108 Techniques (as does Tongbei Quan). It is also described as Coiling Boxing – Pan Quan. This set was also called ‘32 Shou Duanda’ – 32 Hands Close Strikes, as recorded by Liang Yiquan in his Daoguang era (between 1782 and 1850) Qing Dynasty book, Song Shaolin Chang Quan, which he learnt from his teacher Monk Zhang De.

2. Da Hong Quan started in north Henan; by the middle of the Ming dynasty (1400s-1500s) it spread northwest to Shanxi and Shaanxi provinces, east to Shandong (taught there by three masters from Qingfeng county, north Henan), and north to Hebei. In all these areas, Da Hong quan was composed of 10 different sets, which included a ‘Taizu Chang Quan’ set, a ‘Tai Zu Xia Nan Tang’ (‘Grand Ancestor Goes to Southern Tang’, which Zhao Kuangyin did do when he conquered the Southern Tang kingdom) set, and sets of ‘Pao Quan’.

3. Shaolin Lao Hong Quan (Old Flood Boxing) – This very rare style found in Dengfeng village in Henan, right near Shaolin, is a set of four routines that were said to be handed down to Shaolin directly from Song Emperor Zhao Kuangyin. Zhao at one time gave Shaolin his books and notes on martial arts to keep in their library (most of the library was burned in a fire in 1928, but a number of books were saved by the monks, others had been previously hand copies by various people).

The story is that before Zhao became Song emperor, in his youth he traveled around the neighboring provinces learning martial arts. In Shanxi, he had seen a demonstration by a Shaolin monk that practiced a Rou Quan “Soft Boxing” method that greatly intrigued him. He challenged the monk and could not beat him. Zhao followed him all the way from Shanxi to Shaolin and there begged the monks to teach him this Soft method. While there, Zhao exchanged knowledge with the monks and four sets of Hong Quan were developed based on merging techniques that he had learned and this Shaolin soft method.

These sets were later called “Lao” to differentiate them from Li Sou’s sets of Da Hong Quan that were introduced to Shaolin centuries later. They used the Flood character for Hong because the postures were done in a long string of flowing hard and soft movements and that were used to overwhelm an opponent like a flooding river. Even though the Xiao Hong Quan set is attributed to Li Sou (as are the much different Da Hong Quan sets), it shares a number of postures with those of the Lao Hong Quan sets attributed to Zhao Kuangyin. Either they were mixed over time, or this commonality alludes to a common origin point between the two different Shaolin Hong Quan styles. The Lao Hong Quan sets are still practiced in the Dengfeng Village area of Henan.

- Shaolin Da Hong Quan - Both an ancient book titled “Feng Chen Quan Shu Mi Lu” – ‘Dust in the Wind Boxing Method Secret Record’ (風塵拳朮秘錄) and Shaolin’s oral history handed down through the generations say that Zhao created the original Shaolin Hong Quan sets, and left them his martial art manuals and notes. Zhao stopped in Shaolin for a short period when he was traveling and exchanged martial art knowledge with the monks; while there he was taught Rou Quan (Soft Boxing) and he gave the monks a gift of a set of Hong Quan movements that he developed. According to the “Feng Chen Quan Shu Mi Lu”, after Zhao left Shaolin, he went into the military, became emperor, and later unified China into one empire, saying he “attacked the eastern gate (Guandong) to enter the western gate (Guanxi)” – “Da Guandong, Chuang Guanxi” (打关东,创关西). Both this book and also the Shaolin Hong Quan song formulas for these sets mention this same saying. The Shaolin song formula calls the full name of the three-section Da Hong Quan set as the “Taizu Guandong Da Hong Quan”. Guandong means Northeastern China, usually Guan County in Shandong Province. Guandong Quan was a long fist style that was originally practiced by the Chinese Muslims there before it reached the Shaolin area. Guanxi usually means the Shanxi province (where their Hong Quan – Red Fist – was originally called Guanzhong Quan – Western Boxing).

- Big Swan or Vast Fist. Being that Zhao Kuangyin was a military person and before that a trained martial artists, it was probable that he knew the local Yellow River area martial arts that many military people practiced since the Sui and Tang eras. The Liubu Jia routine of the 大鸿拳 - Da Hong Quan (Big Vast / Swan Fist) style that was popular throughout the Luoyang / Yellow River basin areas. Many postures from seen in the Lao Hong Quan routines are also found in the Liubu Jia set from this Da Hong Quan. During his time period, and listed in General Qi Jiguang’s book as being on of the sets in the Taizu Chang Quan system, was the Liubu Jia (Six Step Frame), which was famous for a technique called “San Huang Bang” (Three Dazzling Wings / Upper Arms). The movements and postures of the Liubu Jia routine appear as a prototypical forerunner to those later seen in almost all northern long fist styles named Hong Quan and Chang Quan. For example, this San Huang Bang movement is the same as the “JinJi Duli” – “Golden Rooster Independently Stands” posture that is found in all Chang Quan, Hong Quan, and Taiji Quan styles. The Single Whip (Dan Bian) posture is found in all these styles as well.

4 - 13 Famous Spear - LFJ already told you info about that one. There are a LOT of Taizu weapons sets all over the area between Shandong, Henan, and Shaanx.

Also, in Henan near the Shaolin area there is a whole Taizu Quan style that famous people such as Zhu Tianxi, Shi Dejian, and Shi Deqian (RIP) all learned in their youth. They are all very mum about this style, it forms the base to all their learned and they keep it all quiet for some reason.

[Sal Canzonieri]

5. Hong Quan styles -

Guandong and Guanxi routines - these are supposed to be related to sets from the Shanxi area.

- Shaanxi Hong (Red) Quan says that their foundational set is called Tai Zu Hong Quan 36 Postures, which they say came from when Zhao Kuangyin was in his early 20s and while traveling in Shanxi (I think rather than Shaanxi), he learned the local Guanzhong boxing there and developed this set. (Note: Hong (Flood) character was later changed to Hong (Red) during Qing dynasty.) This style is practiced between Shandong / Henan and Shaanxi / Gansu areas, so it is pretty widespread and influenced almost all the Hong Quan style found today.

- Wudang Hongquan 武当洪拳 - According to the legend of its foundation, this style was created by a Taoist monk on Wudang Mountain during the Song dynasty. As the secular family name of this monk was Hong 洪, the style was called Hongquan Wudang. Among the empty hand forms are included the:
关东架 - Guandong Jia (Eastern Pass Frame);
关西架 - Guanxi Jia (Western Pass Frame);
太平架 - Tai Ping Jia (frame of peace Supreme or Grand Level);
十八路对练打捶 - 18 Lu Dui Lian Da Chui (18 Roads of Connected Hammers);
三十六摔 - 36 Shuai (36 Throwdowns);
七十二擒拿手 - 72 Qinna Shou (72 Seizing Hands);
抓门道功夫 - Zhao Men Dao Gongfu (Snatching School Way), and others.
Among the weapons forms are:
dan dao - 单刀; Shuang guai -双拐; Shou shao zi - 手梢子; Si jie tang - 四节镗; Chun qiu da dao - 春秋大刀; and others.

But, two sets from this style, the Guandongjia and Guanxijia, correspond to two routines said to be created by Song Taizu, respectively the 36 Lu Chang Quan (36 Road Long Fist) 三十六路长拳 and the 366 Shou Chang Quan (366 Hands Long Fist) 三百六十六手长拳. Also, there is a correspondence of movements and correspondence of many names in the Taolu with the Shaanxi Hongquan, despite their claim that the origins are different, indicating that they share a common origin.

- Hubei Hong Quan - The roots of this style come from the Taizu Chang Quan. It is also influenced by Wudang Quan. Two-way spear holding plays are the main methods to deal with the Hubei Hong Quan, which emphasizes both attack and defense. Most of the routines of the Hubei Hong Quan are empty hand sets, such as the general hand plays, defensive hand plays, Jingang (Buddha's warrior attendant) hand plays, etc. Its major sets are:
Gold General's Hand (Jin Zong Shou), Jamming Hand (Feng Shou), Big Combination Hand (Da Zhong Shou), and Gold Splitting Fist (Jin Pi Quan).

- Sichuan Hong Jia Quan – This style is very rare to see and is practiced by the direct descendants of Zhao Kung Yin's relatives (nephews) who moved to Sichuan province during the flight out during the early part of the Southern Song dynasty and lists the following hand sets: Xiao Hong Quan, Da Hong Quan, Hong Men Chui, and Hong Men Shou (red door hand).

- Er Lu Hongquan, 二路红拳 Two Section Red fist (not flood character) - Shandong province is the birthplace of this two routine style. In the Red fist legends, it is said that Zhao Kuangyin, the first emperor of the Song Dynasty had created it. But, the real time for the systematization of the style was recorded in the Qing Dynasty (1368-1911). At the 13th year of the Kangxi emperor reign (1674), the Two Part Red fist had been created between the provinces of Shandong and Shanxi.


Besides these there are these uncertain ones:

6. Lai Zhou Taizu Men - During the Qing dynasty, Shaolin monks traveling in the Ying Kou area of Liaoning province, in northeastern China, passed a series of martial art sets south to (Sheng) Cheng Lixian (盛力先) of Shandong province. He became a bodyguard in Qingdao, returning later to his home in Laizhu (莱州).

Some of the sets that they practiced were Taizhu Quan (3 parts and 4 sections) Chang Quan of 32 Postures and 108 Techniques, Tang Lang 13 Zhao, Small Tiger Swallow), Yui Jia Duanda Chui (Yue family Close Strike Hammers), Hei Hu Quan (Black Tiger Boxing), Da Hong Quan (Small Flood Fist), and 8 Drunken Immortals, among others: 太祖拳, 螳螂十三招, 小虎燕, 岳家捶, 黑虎拳, 梅花拳, 大洪拳, and 醉八仙等. The weapon sets were taizhu and Plum Flower based implements: 梅花刀, 梅花剑, 行者棍, 梅花枪, 梅花叠鞭, 虎尾三节棍 (即宋太祖盘龙棍), 八卦游龙剑, and 虎头双钩等.

Most of these sets are VERY similar to Misong / Yangxing Quan style from Shandong, which is also supposed to date back to early Song era in origin.

7. Bei Shaolin Quan Men – the Northern Long Fist Gate (School) that was developed by Han Qingtang (originally from Jimo County) includes a Taizu Chang Quan set amongst its 10 famous sets. Han studied Long Fist as a first generation pupil from the Nanjing Central Guoshu Guan. In Jimo, he first learned Shaolin Meihua Men from a Shaolin monk, Sun Mao Lin (孫茂林) and Jiang Benhe (姜本河), both being from Liangshan originally. This Meihua boxing is made up of three forms: Maifu Quan (埋伏拳); Shizi Tang (十字趟); Taizu Chang Quan (太祖长拳); also taught is a Duilian named Xiao Wushou (小五手).

Han also learned from several famous masters in Shandong Guoshu Guan, like Chang Bing-Zhang and Yang Ming-Zai. Han taught the Jai Men (Islamic) and Meihua (Plum Blossom) systems of Long Fist. The material may originally have come from Liangshan city, Jining County. People have long wondered where his Taizu Chang Quan set came from, since it shares many aspects with Mi Zhong Quan, Hua Quan, and Cha Quan, which are other local long fist styles. Han’s Taizu Chang Quan set is similar to Laizhou’s Taizu Chang Quan, so they may have come from the same original source. The two sets may appear different outwardly as far as the set’s movements go; but they are the same in style, sharing their shen fa, jing fa, and techniques.

8. Shandong Wendeng – during the Guanxu years (1875-1908) of Qing dynasty, Liu Mingshan of Wendeng County learned Shaolin martial arts. Later he settled in Harbin, Heilongjiang Province in Northeast China (Manchuria). They claim it comes from Zhao Kuangyin's original 18 Road sets. In Huang County, the style was also passed to Meng Qingyue. Liu taught 6 sections of an 18 section Taizu Chang Quan set, 24 Tan Tui, 5 roads of Taizu Pao Quan, Xiao Wu Shou (Small Five Hands), Qi Bu Lienhuan Chui (7 Step Linking Hammers), Taizu Single Knife, and various other weapons. Almost all these sets appear to come from either the 1600s via Dong Cheng’s Tongbei Quan style or from the 1500s via Dong’s parent style, Bai Yufeng’s Wu Quan (Five Fists).

9. Yantai Taizu Chang Quan - this Yantai Shandong style teaches the Black Tiger and also the Hu Yan sets (Xiao, Zhong, and Da). It would appear from these sets that this style has been descended from Henan martial arts, including Mi Zhong Quan.

10. Ping Du area of Shandong - Shi Youshan spread this Taizu Chang Quan in Huimin County. It is thought that it comes from teachings of Chuan Zhangzhen. The sets practiced are: Taizu Chang Quan, Xiao Wu Shou, Five Fists Training, Ba Gong Chui (Eight Exercises Hammers) Training, Ba Feng Da Jia, and various weapons. These sets also appear to be from Bai Yufeng’s Wu Quan system, showing a Shaolin origin.

11. Also from Ping Du area - Wang Zhijun's Taizu Quan, coming from Qing Emperor Daoguang's reign (1820-1850). Sets practiced are: 24 Tan Tui, Xiao Wu Shou, 12 Gong Shi (postures), Eight Standing Postures, and numerous drills instead of sets. Again these sets appear to be from Bai Yufeng’s Wu Quan system, showing a Shaolin origin.

12. From Jimo area of Shandong - Gao Fang Xian's Sun Bin Quan system also practiced a Taizu Quan Four Sections set, as well as Taizu weapons sets.

13. Shandong General Leng Taizu Quan - this family style emphasizes the staff, was taught by Liu Yi. Style comes from a Ming era warlord named Leng. Supposedly it is more ancient? It has a Tang Dynasty Snake Staff set. They practice a Taizu Four Section Advancing (Jin) Chang Quan and Six Roads of Hammers (Bai Ma Quan Siang (White Horse Circles Toward); Ye Li Cang Hua (Leaves Hide the Flowers); Siba (Three Seizing); Ba Ge-zi (Eight measured Words); Zhan Na Chui (Beheading Grab Hammer); and Yan Qing).

14. Shandong Rushan area – Xiao Mingkui taught Zhong Yushun a Taizu Chang Quan set that was also called Xiao Hong Yan (Small Red Flame).

15. Mizong Quan / Yan Qing Quan – both styles are practiced in Hebei and Shandong province, and practice a Taizu Chang Quan set.

16. Cangzhou, Hebei province Taizu Chang Quan - came about during the Qing dynasty, from material taught by "a monk" in the Cang Zhou area of Hebei province. Two different versions of this style exist there. One is from Zhao Yao Tong, who taught Mi Zhong and Taizu Chang Quan to Liu Yun Qiao. This Taizu set is called ‘Supporting Slow Fist’ - Cheng Man Quan. The postures are not like other Taizu Chang Quan sets, but rather like the 32 postures in General Qi Jiguang’s book.

17. The second Cangzhou county Taizu Quan is from a Monk “Shun Yuan He Shang”, during the Kangxi era (1661-1722) of Qing dynasty. The style was passed to Song Yicheng and his son. Sets include: Yi Lu Taizu Quan, Er Lu Taizu Quan, Xing Bu Quan, 12 Tan Tui, and various weapons.

18. Sichuan Emei Zhao Men – the style is named for a series of sets done in Emei that are said to be collected from the Song dynasty. Despite linking itself to Zhao Kuangyin, it is pretty much the same sets as seen in Shaanxi Hong Quan.

[GeneChing]

The version I practice is probably closest to the second to the last Shaolin TZQ yt vid on Sal's initial post. I love it despite it not being the 'real internal way to do this set'

There's another Songshan Shaolin TZQ one here, a demo from Tiger Claw's KungFuMagazine.com Championships 2009. It starts at about 30 secs.