WSL directly

[Paddington]

Thank for sharing BPWT!

[poulperadieux]

Thanks for your thoughts, I'm not really interested in kevin's thoughts so I'll answer you.

There's a saying in wing chun, I think it was written by TST from Yip man teachings : "Wing Chun wins by going under".

That's why you switch by going under since Biu Jee.

So what's the point of the move in siu lim tao?


You'll have to look on people who train a lot the internal work of SLT, like these ones :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1e4_PUXRKyY

For them, some of the main purposes of SLT is to relax down the shoulders, sink the legs so they train a lot all the muscles and tendons (it's really painful the first seconds, you have to train at least 2 years to manage to do it 30 minutes without cheating), and to acquire a Heavy Elbow .

The Heavy Elbow is an obsession in Leung sheun's lineage.

In the end of the form, you are exhausted if you 've done it right, so your legs hurt like hell, you breathing is deep to give your legs the energy they need, and your upper body is relaxed due to the relaxation and also the contrast with the huge effort you've done in the lower body.

So this move, I think, is the ultimate check for the elbow's weight of the formas the one one top is heavy and relaxed, the other one tries to rise, et vice et versa.

For me, this move has no application, it's a Qi Gong move, what else?

[poulperadieux]

Yes, come to my yard and I will show you.

I can explain every aspect and action in the system. It seems you cannot. Until you understand my thinking don't knock it. I used to have the same ideas of Wing Chun as you.

When you understand Ving Tsun it doesn't need long drawn out posts filled with applications and uncertainties. It's easy to work out once you have the right stimulus.

Yeasssah !

In PB VT, all you need to expose your ideas is a Goat, and a Knife !

[Sean66]

It's a punching concept.
A method of practicing the correct path of the elbow and hand in punching, as well as the coordination between the two hands. One punching and one pulling back as fast as possible, replacing the other. This ensures that you always have a hand back to protect yourself (in the right distance) and also ensures that you don't leave your hand out there when the way for punching is obstructed, but change immediately thus avoiding force on force.

Note that after entering when striking we try not to pull back the hand to the elbow each time but to work "point to point".

Why do it low? Because it's easier to control the action. Easier to make sure you're really taking that outside line and going elbow over elbow, before you start concentrating on the actual punches at the end of the form.

[T_Ray]

It's a punching concept.
A method of practicing the correct path of the elbow and hand in punching, as well as the coordination between the two hands. One punching and one pulling back as fast as possible, replacing the other. This ensures that you always have a hand back to protect yourself (in the right distance) and also ensures that you don't leave your hand out there when the way for punching is obstructed, but change immediately thus avoiding force on force.

Note that after entering when striking we try not to pull back the hand to the elbow each time but to work "point to point".

Why do it low? Because it's easier to control the action. Easier to make sure you're really taking that outside line and going elbow over elbow, before you start concentrating on the actual punches at the end of the form.

Excellent answer!

[k gledhill]

It's a punching concept.
A method of practicing the correct path of the elbow and hand in punching, as well as the coordination between the two hands. One punching and one pulling back as fast as possible, replacing the other. This ensures that you always have a hand back to protect yourself (in the right distance) and also ensures that you don't leave your hand out there when the way for punching is obstructed, but change immediately thus avoiding force on force.

Note that after entering when striking we try not to pull back the hand to the elbow each time but to work "point to point".

Why do it low? Because it's easier to control the action. Easier to make sure you're really taking that outside line and going elbow over elbow, before you start concentrating on the actual punches at the end of the form.

Well put......

[YouKnowWho]

You send one hand out to "replace" the other hand, so you can pull the other hand back (for any reason). The back of your hands are almost touching to each other (not required). This way you only need a small space to do so (you can't do this well with boxing gloves on). The general TCMA term for this move is called "hand washing". Here is an application for this move used in grappling.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MXs8dbRjZ2Y

[k gledhill]

You send one hand out to replace the other hand, so you can pull the other hand back (for any reason). The back of your hands are almost touching to each other (not required). This way you only need a small space to do so (you can't do this well with boxing gloves on). The general TCMA term for this move is called "hand washing". Here is an application for this move used in grappling.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MXs8dbRjZ2Y

Why do keep trying to make vt into grappling ?

[Graham H]

It's a punching concept.
A method of practicing the correct path of the elbow and hand in punching, as well as the coordination between the two hands. One punching and one pulling back as fast as possible, replacing the other. This ensures that you always have a hand back to protect yourself (in the right distance) and also ensures that you don't leave your hand out there when the way for punching is obstructed, but change immediately thus avoiding force on force.

Note that after entering when striking we try not to pull back the hand to the elbow each time but to work "point to point".

Why do it low? Because it's easier to control the action. Easier to make sure you're really taking that outside line and going elbow over elbow, before you start concentrating on the actual punches at the end of the form.

Perfect Sean. Thanks

Attn Paddington. You asked "how can it be a punching concept?" Now you have the information. The problem with a lot of Wing Chun lineages is that they have surrounded these actions with fighting applications. I have seen many. Why have they done this? Well your question sums it up perfectly. When somebody hasn't been exposed to such ideas the whole thing goes out the window. You can invent many things through lack of knowledge. (see below)

This punching concept is everywhere in the forms not just at the end of SLT. Without this idea Ving Tsun cannot function properly. These punching concepts don't turn people into instant world class fighters but what they do is make it easier to fight using Ving Tsun and makes the system very clear to understand.

One of the attributes improved through chi sau is the ability to cycle and recycle this punching concept. Without it what you are left is is what you see in most Wing Chun schools. Two people trying to occupy what they both beleive to be the centerline and they use the arm contact to try and open each other up like can openers.

This is what can happen when somebody has the wrong idea. The system gets f***ed...........To quote Poul

For them, some of the main purposes of SLT is to relax down the shoulders, sink the legs so they train a lot all the muscles and tendons (it's really painful the first seconds, you have to train at least 2 years to manage to do it 30 minutes without cheating), and to acquire a Heavy Elbow .

The Heavy Elbow is an obsession in Leung sheun's lineage.

In the end of the form, you are exhausted if you 've done it right, so your legs hurt like hell, you breathing is deep to give your legs the energy they need, and your upper body is relaxed due to the relaxation and also the contrast with the huge effort you've done in the lower body.

So this move, I think, is the ultimate check for the elbow's weight of the formas the one one top is heavy and relaxed, the other one tries to rise, et vice et versa.

For me, this move has no application, it's a Qi Gong move, what else?

[Graham H]

Yeasssah !

In PB VT, all you need to expose your ideas is a Goat, and a Knife !

Oh ok. Well done Poul.

[BPWT]

I'm not saying what you do is wrong, Graham... indeed, some of sounds quite right (Sean's post was good, and well expressed) but you're making some pretty bold statements about what this art is, and who is doing it right and who has f*cked it all up.

Can you point me to a quote from Yip Man where he said that this punching concept is everywhere in the forms?

If not, then it makes more sense to say that this is WSL's interpretation. Of course, if you can point me to a quote from WSL saying that only he got it right from Yip Man and that everyone else got it wrong, that would go some way to clearing things up too.

For me there are many ideas in the forms, and punching concepts is absolutely one of them. Poon Sau is a punching concept, at heart, too.

But man, you are getting as bad as Kevin ; there is more out there than just the WSL method, and again you need to look at how Yip Man might have developed his system (if you want to claim which Yip Man WC/VT is right, and which is wrong).

So there!

[Graham H]

I'm not saying what you do is wrong, Graham... indeed, some of sounds quite right (Sean's post was good, and well expressed) but you're making some pretty bold statements about what this art is, and who is doing it right and who has f*cked it all up.

Its my opinion based on my experience that covers quite a few lineages. Is that bad?

Can you point me to a quote from Yip Man where he said that this punching concept is everywhere in the forms?

Why are you questioning what Yip Man said?

If not, then it makes more sense to say that this is WSL's interpretation. Of course, if you can point me to a quote from WSL saying that only he got it right from Yip Man and that everyone else got it wrong, that would go some way to clearing things up too.

Yeah a lot of people think that. I have met many LT students that think the same as you.

For me there are many ideas in the forms, and punching concepts is absolutely one of them. Poon Sau is a punching concept, at heart, too.

Horaaa!

But man, you are getting as bad as Kevin ;

LOL. Not a bad thing in my book. He has been around Wing Chun a long time and has seen a lot of nonsense.

there is more out there than just the WSL method, and again you need to look at how Yip Man might have developed his system (if you want to claim which Yip Man WC/VT is right, and which is wrong).

I'm not in a position to say what Yip Man did or didn't do. Are you?

So there yourself!

[Graham H]

Its funny that you are using Yip Man himself in our little love triangle

[BPWT]

Its my opinion based on my experience that covers quite a few lineages. Is that bad?

Not bad, but... you know, maybe wrong.

Why are you questioning what Yip Man said?

Eh? I'm not, I'm asking you to show me where, let's say in a published interview, he said what you are saying is true of his art.

Yeah a lot of people think that. I have met many LT students that think the same as you.

C'mon. But I'll bite... name a few who studied the LT method from Leung Ting.

Horaaa!

Whoop!

LOL. Not a bad thing in my book. He has been around Wing Chun a long time and has seen a lot of nonsense.

He might have. But when he was studying under Victor Kan, did he not think VK was the best thing since slice bread? Now he's found bagels from PB. Which is all good... bread is nice.

I'm not in a position to say what Yip Man did or didn't do. Are you?

Nope - but I'm not telling people what they learn is f*cked up. I figured you must have some secret sauce directly from Yip Man... you know, whereby you could actually show us the sauce.

So there yourself!

Hand replacing hands is one thing, replacing my line with... my line is just Bad Form, LOL

[Graham H]

Not bad, but... you know, maybe wrong.

Yes they were wrong.

Eh? I'm not, I'm asking you to show me where, let's say in a published interview, he said what you are saying is true of his art.

Its not possible to discuss Yip Man. Give it up.

C'mon. But I'll bite... name a few who studied the LT method from Leung Ting.

Batman

He might have. But when he was studying under Victor Kan, did he not think VK was the best thing since slice bread? Now he's found bagels from PB. Which is all good... bread is nice.

Did he?

Nope - but I'm not telling people what they learn is f*cked up. I figured you must have some secret sauce directly from Yip Man... you know, whereby you could actually show us the sauce.

If you think that what Poul Pot wrote about SLT is not f***ed then your are as strange as he is

Hand replacing hands is one thing, replacing my line with... my line is just Bad Form, LOL

Eh? How are your heavy elbows? lmao