WSL directly

[Graham H]

Just a general note on people's argumentation styles. You are never able to address the points people make and even when they make a point similar to yours, you can't see it nor note the similarities. You end up making yourselves look foolish.

It is obvious to me that whilst you have good knowledge and perhaps skill in Wing Chun, you don't know it all and ultimately you will realize this and need to seek out the more experienced to help you. Unfortunately it is likely you will run up against brick walls; people just won't want to work with you if your posts on these boards are indicative of you personalities more generally.

Yeah, the above is my prediction.

Refer to my post above

[Graham H]

And please answer my question about all these LTWT guys trained by LT who now learn from PB.

As far as I'm aware they came from both KK and LT or at least that what they said. I have been in PB's school when people from LTWT have arrived. After and exchange and discussion then no more LTWT.

It's up to you whether you believe that.

If you insist on names I will PM you. Maybe you can mail them to ask why they left.

LTWT is very popular in Germany. There are many that used to practice in that lineage but have left due to KK & LT actions. FACT!

[Paddington]

*removed as wrong thread*

[wingchunIan]

Joy or that other Fong guy could answer the questions as well, if he's not too busy looking into mirrors, and we will end up with the thinking that crosses 4 different lineages.

If Ian could answer (or T.Ray as he was part of it for so long) we would have 5

Wong Shun Leung
Leung Ting
Tsu Shong Tin
Ho Kam Ming
Ip Chun

....maybe an Ip Ching lineage from somebody.

I'd be happy to comment on each point (although I can only speak for my lineage and not the whole Ip Chun lineage), but it would be good to hear the answers from a PB lineage perspective.

[Graham H]

I'd be happy to comment on each point (although I can only speak for my lineage and not the whole Ip Chun lineage), but it would be good to hear the answers from a PB lineage perspective.

It will be good to hear answers from all lineages.

[BPWT]

I'm not a troll.

In that case, why don't you:

a) Provide feedback to your own questions - showing that you are indeed willing to debate and engage. Rather than just ask from others but not actually giving

b) Answer my previous question about direct LT guys now with PB. You made the claim that high ranking guys from Leung Ting are now learning from PB. That sounds interesting... but you refuse to give any names at all (even though it is surely public, as they were supposedly high ranking). Instead, you say: "Batman."

You want to back out then that is up to you. It tells me a lot.

That is quite possibly the stupidest thing I have read from you. I took the time to address some of your questions - but didn't, and still don't, have time to address all of them.

Backing out? That would be true if I had said "no" to answering any. I gave you some answers, and frankly why talk about CK level material when I don't even know if we are on the same page regarding SNT level materials.

All my posts told you were that I am willing to share. Yours tell me that you are not so willing, and that you refuse to give me an answer regarding something you previously claimed. Regarding that, I gave you the benefit of the doubt and asked for more info (a name). As you can't provide it you either a troll and/or a bullish*tter. Sorry.

What this forum should do for the viewer is make their own mind up and the chances that they will all choose the same lineage are small.

When you post but answer no questions, how I am supposed to make up my mind about anything.

Why keep making this personal?

It is personal only in the sense that you make claims you won't elaborate on, ask Qs you yourself don't want to give your own feedback on, and you pan/ridicule/ others even though it becomes clearer day-by-day that your own knowledge may be restricted to seeing everything in Wing Chun (generic spelling, meaning all from Yip Man), as being just a 'punching concept'.

So you find it funny (it sets off your warning bells) that someone like myself hasn't done a great deal of work with the pole, while I find it funny that someone who has (yourself) seemed to get there before learning some of the details in the empty hand forms. Or like I said earlier, maybe it isn't you personally, maybe this just what the PB system is - a very stripped down Wing Chun, focussing almost exclusively on the basics.

Who knows. No one, if you only give short little answers to questions and just say 'Go visit Phillip." Which for many of us is not practical or of prime importance.

So again, can you or can you not answer my question? Can you tell me who learned directly from Leung Ting (not from KK with a few LT seminars, etc, thrown in) the LTWT system who has, now, left it in order to learn from PB?

I've asked this 3 or 4 times, and you keep ignoring it. I ask only as I would like to know and would love to talk to them. If you can't answer the question, please stop with the bullish*t.

[BPWT]

As far as I'm aware they came from both KK and LT or at least that what they said. I have been in PB's school when people from LTWT have arrived. After and exchange and discussion then no more LTWT.

It's up to you whether you believe that.

If you insist on names I will PM you. Maybe you can mail them to ask why they left.

LTWT is very popular in Germany. There are many that used to practice in that lineage but have left due to KK & LT actions. FACT!

Great! Please PM me. No names needed of people who have left the EWTO (KK's organization), as I know many such names and know (usually) the reasons they left.

But I know no one from LT (so, not from KK) who have done this. I would like to know.

I certainly do believe that people from the EWTO have left it and gone to PB. No arguments from me there. I am talking about a different set of people, and I think you know that full well.

[Graham H]

a) Provide feedback to your own questions - showing that you are indeed willing to debate and engage. Rather than just ask from others but not actually giving

I have no problem with that when your arrive.

b) Answer my previous question about direct LT guys now with PB. You made the claim that high ranking guys from Leung Ting are now learning from PB. That sounds interesting... but you refuse to give any names at all (even though it is surely public, as they were supposedly high ranking). Instead, you say: "Batman."

As far as I knew LT and KK were the same. If they are now not joined together then maybe these guys specifically from KK. I did not know that to be the case. I will be seeing a lot of them in a few weeks. I'll ask. You sound like you are trying to disprove me. You can't.

That is quite possibly the stupidest thing I have read from you. I took the time to address some of your questions - but didn't, and still don't, have time to address all of them.

If it is as stupid as what you are writing I'm sorry.

Backing out? That would be true if I had said "no" to answering any. I gave you some answers, and frankly why talk about CK level material when I don't even know if we are on the same page regarding SNT level materials.

....and the rest???????

All my posts told you were that I am willing to share. Yours tell me that you are not so willing, and that you refuse to give me an answer regarding something you previously claimed. Regarding that, I gave you the benefit of the doubt and asked for more info (a name). As you can't provide it you either a troll and/or a bullish*tter. Sorry.

Stop being a c**t and get on with it. I'm not angry. You seem to be.

When you post but answer no questions, how I am supposed to make up my mind about anything.

So I'm willing to. I've got nothing to hide. Never had. Stop crying.

It is personal only in the sense that you make claims you won't elaborate on, ask Qs you yourself don't want to give your own feedback on, and you pan/ridicule/ others even though it becomes clearer day-by-day that your own knowledge may be restricted to seeing everything in Wing Chun (generic spelling, meaning all from Yip Man), as being just a 'punching concept'.

That is correct.

So you find it funny (it sets off your warning bells) that someone like myself hasn't done a great deal of work with the pole, while I find it funny that someone who has (yourself) seemed to get there before learning some of the details in the empty hand forms. Or like I said earlier, maybe it isn't you personally, maybe this just what the PB system is - a very stripped down Wing Chun, focussing almost exclusively on the basics.

It's not but carry on.

Who knows. No one, if you only give short little answers to questions and just say 'Go visit Phillip." Which for many of us is not practical or of prime importance.

that's what people used to say to me and I did it. Have you?

So again, can you or can you not answer my question? Can you tell me who learned directly from Leung Ting (not from KK with a few LT seminars, etc, thrown in) the LTWT system who has, now, left it in order to learn from PB?

Diverting attention away from yourself isn't going to well is it?

I've asked this 3 or 4 times, and you keep ignoring it. I ask only as I would like to know and would love to talk to them. If you can't answer the question, please stop with the bullish*t.

I'm not ignoring it. I'll ask them.

[Graham H]

I wouldn't bother wasting your time writing another long post like that. Just answer the questions and stop playing tennis with me!

[BPWT]

Graham, you really are writing nonsense. You want me to write pages and pages about how I do this that and the other, and why? Sorry, I think I'd rather wait to hear what you have to say about the SNT level stuff, first.

So I will wait to hear your ideas on those, as I have already given mine. But there are a few things I do have to say.

I am not angry.
But I don't like being taken for a ride - and I think you are trolling and being obtuse.

I have no problem with that when your arrive.

Seriously? What was it you said to the guy who laughed at your YouTube video: "I'll finish you." Something like that, wasn't it. LOL. You have a mouth on you, I'll give you that. Well, there is a chance I will in the UK this September. PM me your details.

But much more importantly...

As far as I knew LT and KK were the same. If they are now not joined together then maybe these guys specifically from KK. I did not know that to be the case. I will be seeing a lot of them in a few weeks. I'll ask. You sound like you are trying to disprove me. You can't.

What LT teaches in Hong Kong (concepts, general training methods, chi sao methods, lat sao methods, etc) is not the same as what KK is teaching in Europe.

What you pay in Hong Kong, and how long you wait to learn things in Hong Kong, is not the same as what you pay and how long you wait in Europe.

KK learned from LT, and is indeed really very skilled... but what the EWTO does these days is really a far cry from what you get from Leung Ting. This knowledge, and for some, revelation, resulted in many people in Europe (and not just in Germany) leaving the EWTO. Those people, having left, had no option to learn from LT (if you are in Western Europe and you want to learn from the 'official' WT organization, you need to be with KK. This is a deal long established between LT and KK.

Is that good for Leung Ting's art? Who am I to say - but Leung Ting has no need to be worried about his art being passed on the way he teaches it. There are people who can do this.

So yes - EWTO people have left and gone elsewhere (usually because of 1: the odd things they are being taught, 2: the system being so far from what LT teaches, 3: the outrageous costs, 4: the crazy politics).

So... I am still waiting for your PM that gives me a name of someone who learned Wing Tsun directly from Leung Ting and then gave it up to learn what PB is teaching.

If you provide an actual name of an actual person who has done this... super... I will write back to apologize for calling you a bullsh*tter, and I will try and contact that person you name to ask them about their impressions of LTWT in reference to WSLPBVT.

If you can't provide a name then I don't need to try and disprove you - you would have done it yourself.

[T_Ray]

I have been working hard to forget some of the strange thinking I learned in other lineages of WC/VT!
In the past, I have been given numerous explanations for those movements in the forms. Explanations ranging from the seemingly reasonable, to the downright absurd!
Mostly the explanations were to say each movement was some specific technique to be used against a specific kind of attack.
Some of the crazier explanations of the cross arms movement I have come across, including:
To "Define the Centreline".... One very well known WC instructor saying that in China in the old days, people didn't have big mirrors, so they would line themselves up with a tree or bamboo and cross down and up to line up their centreline.
The lifting cross arms "lines up acupuncture "chi points" in the hands with points in the upper body".
Perhaps less strange:
Its gaun sao.
Its to place the elbows forward.
The slow tan, fook, wu sao,...:
Its to develop "Elbow Energy" or "Ging Lik" (whatever that is?).
Applications including escaping from some kinds of wrist grabs, plus the common idea that a tan sao is some kind of blocking application that is used against a punch.

Then I went to see Philipp Bayer, and have a much simpler, clearer and functional understanding of the forms and the system.

[Graham H]

Listen man I asked for your thinking on a few simple Wing Chun actions. I wasn't going to berate you or rubbish what you write. Rather than answer them you have turned this into pages of BS. You said you didn't have any time to answer yet you have found time for all that trash you have wrote above.

Forget it.

People get angry when they are pushed into corners.

Ian responded and was willing to offer his thinking. Maybe Glenn and Joy would have who knows? Why have you not just done that and avoided this rubbish?

What have you done? Tried to fire questions, even my own questions, back at me.

Maybe you need your nappy changed.

BTW if you had any clue about Wing Chun you would been able to explain those actions in a few simple sentences but you can't. That is normal for WT. I was hoping you would prove me wrong.

Convo over. Toodle pip.

[Graham H]

I have been working hard to forget some of the strange thinking I learned in other lineages of WC/VT!
In the past, I have been given numerous explanations for those movements in the forms. Explanations ranging from the seemingly reasonable, to the downright absurd!
Mostly the explanations were to say each movement was some specific technique to be used against a specific kind of attack.
Some of the crazier explanations of the cross arms movement I have come across, including:
To "Define the Centreline".... One very well known WC instructor saying that in China in the old days, people didn't have big mirrors, so they would line themselves up with a tree or bamboo and cross down and up to line up their centreline.
The lifting cross arms "lines up acupuncture "chi points" in the hands with points in the upper body".
Perhaps less strange:
Its gaun sao.
Its to place the elbows forward.
The slow tan, fook, wu sao,...:
Its to develop "Elbow Energy" or "Ging Lik" (whatever that is?).
Applications including escaping from some kinds of wrist grabs, plus the common idea that a tan sao is some kind of blocking application that is used against a punch.

Then I went to see Philipp Bayer, and have a much simpler, clearer and functional understanding of the forms and the system.

Thanks for your response T. It's a shame that nut job BPWT couldn't do the same.

[BPWT]

I answered in more detail than T-Ray, who also answered only a selection.

Did that pass you by?

Back to your rabbit-jumping around in a stance wide open for a kick in the nuts. Or go play with your pole (don't say it... The Pole Is A Punching Concept).

[BPWT]

Ps. Still no PM from you with a name. A single name.