WSL directly

[YouKnowWho]

why doing it downwards in the form and everyone seems fine that the application is upward ?

That was his explanation which may not be the "only" explanation.

It can be used to break a wrist grip. many TCMA system all have this technique. If you move your body back and use your body weight, it will work much better.

The following short clip shows how the longfist system uses the same technique.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lSbc5y6ybsY

Onething that I don't agree with what he said, "When you use the other hand to break your opponent's wrist grip, his free hand can punch you". If you pull your arm back in such a way that you can use his grapping arm to jam his own punching arm, you won't have this problem.

[trubblman]

Looks interesting but does anyone know of this video with subtitles?

[poulperadieux]

Onething that I don't agree with what he said, "When you use the other hand to break your opponent's wrist grip, his free hand can punch you". If you pull your arm back in such a way that you can use his grapping arm to jam his own punching arm, you won't have this problem.

The question is : "If someone hold you, why bother getting out?"

the most dangerous hand is not the one that grabs you, but the other one, witch location is not controlled by your superior bonanza chi sao enhanced cyborg touch.
And his legs.

There's plenty of ways to get rid of a single hold, without force, and with one hand, so, I do agree with WSL, why bother using two hands?

But like I said earlier in this topic, I think WSL knew half about this move, especially when you compare how it is done in the Leung Sheun Lineage.

I precise I don't belong to Leung Sheun Lineage, I'm just a freeloader, a Schnorrer in OC.

[k gledhill]

The question is : "If someone hold you, why bother getting out?"

the most dangerous hand is not the one that grabs you, but the other one, witch location is not controlled by your superior bonanza chi sao enhanced cyborg touch.
And his legs.

There's plenty of ways to get rid of a single hold, without force, and with one hand, so, I do agree with WSL, why bother using two hands?

But like I said earlier in this topic, I think WSL knew half about this move, especially when you compare how it is done in the Leung Sheun Lineage.

I precise I don't belong to Leung Sheun Lineage, I'm just a freeloader, a Schnorrer in OC.

What do you think is missing ?

[poulperadieux]

What do you think is missing ?

Can't tell yet, want to know before if someone knows why we do this move downward, because upward, it looks like a fak sao or a biu sao combo in the biu jee.

Why did the ancients bothered to do this downward if everyone applies it upward?


I don't mock anyone, just want to know if someone has heard of it before giving the answer I had, don't want to spoil the discussion on that, if discussion there will be.

[k gledhill]

Can't tell yet, want to know before if someone knows why we do this move downward, because upward, it looks like a fak sao or a biu sao combo in the biu jee.

Why did the ancients bothered to do this downward if everyone applies it upward?


I don't mock anyone, just want to know if someone has heard of it before giving the answer I had, don't want to spoil the discussion on that, if discussion there will be.

I know why it's low and why high.

[poulperadieux]

I know why it's low and why high.

The tide?
Cool for you.

So, why do we do this move low in Siu lim tao?

[Phil Redmond]

And at fighting speed.

http://youtu.be/sviizp-Bmgw

Your signature reads: WSL: "Combat experience is more important than any other thing." Sifu Anthony Arnett is holding a Wing Chun tournament.
Open to all Wing Chun Families


May 4th 2013
Baltimore, MD
5315 Harford Rd. 21214


Special Gold/ Silver/ Bronze metals


$50 for 1st event $10 each additional event

Starting @ 9 AM Sharp!


Divisions

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Spectators only $10

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Contact Master John Clayton @

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Judges and referees needed!

[k gledhill]

Your signature reads: WSL: "Combat experience is more important than any other thing." Sifu Anthony Arnett is holding a Wing Chun tournament.
Open to all Wing Chun Families


May 4th 2013
Baltimore, MD
5315 Harford Rd. 21214


Special Gold/ Silver/ Bronze metals


$50 for 1st event $10 each additional event

Starting @ 9 AM Sharp!


Divisions

Forms/Chi Sao/P.O.C Point of contact Sparring/Light contact sparring


Spectators only $10

at the front door

Cash Only


Contact Master John Clayton @

410 278-2969 or 443 769-0636

Judges and referees needed!

Thanks I will check it out.

[YouKnowWho]

The question is : "If someone hold you, why bother getting out?"

You may not think about this from a grappler point of view. Since I train both WC and grappling, here is my 2 cents.

When one of your opponent hands control one of your wrists, he can guide your arm to jam your other arm, and use his other hand to control your other arm. Now both of your arms are controlled by his hands. Since you have to break his grip before you can punch him, when you are thinking about "break his grip", he is thinking about how to "shoot in" at your leg. He is one step ahead of you in the game.

If you don't want to be forced to play a grappling game, you should break your opponent 1st hand grip ASAP.

the most dangerous hand is not the one that grabs you, but the other one, witch location is not controlled by your superior bonanza chi sao enhanced cyborg touch. And his legs.

I have to disagree with you on this. When your opponent grabs your arm, he has a purpose. His purpose is not just to control one of your arms but to control your entire body.

When you try to punch with your free hand, all your opponent needs to do is to drag your leading arm to "jam" your back striking arm. If you try to kick, your opponent can pull your leading arm downward to force your body weight to shift to your front leg. Your front leg won't even be able to raise up.

Will all these thing happen according to your opponent's plan? It depends on your opponent's skill level and your skill level. It's much easier to prevent it from happening (break your opponent's hold ASAP) than to allow it to happen and fix it afterward.

[Paddington]

What I got from the video was an explanation of concepts and an illustration of them being applied. It's not really possible to discuss application of concept without showing a little something, so what you may see are situational techniques, but more important is the concept he's discussing which aren't bound by those situations. One should be able to see beyond that if they understand the concept.

Yep. I just posted it because it combined several clips together. It is a good one to download and save.

[LFJ]

I believe you should do the opposite. The reason is simple, you should always turn your arm to against your opponent's thumb (1 finger) and not to against his other 4 fingers. If you use your own left hand to grab your right wrist, you will find out that your right "Tan Shou" will work better than your right "Bon Shou".

I don't find that to be the case, actually. Neither on myself nor against an opponent.

If your opponent's

- "right" hand grabs your "right" wrist, you can use "Bong Shou" to break it. The proble is you will expose your right elbow to your opponent's free left hand.
- "left" hand grabs your "right" wrist, you can use "Tan Shou" to break it. The problem is your will expose your center to your opponent's free right punch.

In both cases the opponent's hand will move with you. Inward in the first case, and turning over comfortably in the second. You'd then have to rip your hand back to free it. We like things to move forward, and it is possible the grip won't be broken in either case if the grip is strong.

Instead, if your opponent's

- "right" hand grabs your "right" wrist, taan-sau turn will turn their wrist over painfully, twisting their entire arm and turning their body away if they don't let go.
- "left" hand grabs your "right" wrist, bong-sau will pressure the ulna into their first fingers giving leverage to the radius to break out through their thumb, meanwhile moving forward and keeping protected.

So why do the opposite where there is the possibility that it won't work, and leaving yourself exposed...

The solution is not whether you should use Tan Shou or Bon Shou to break a grip but which direction that you should turn your wrist to break that grip.

That's what taan and bong do in this case.

[LFJ]

So, why doing it downwards in the form and everyone seems fine that the application is upward ?

It may not always be upward. Wherever the contact point may be, high or low.

Three concepts from most to least important:

1. replacing energy; to protect and control space
2. changing shape; to effect an outcome when one shape won't work
3. emergency gaang-sau; to protect the lower gate by shooting for the center when the hands aren't "ready" for a proper gaang-sau.

[EternalSpring]

That make sense,

So, why doing it downwards in the form and everyone seems fine that the application is upward ?

In that case, why bother with this move in siu lim tao if biu jee is full of fack sao or biu sao that can be interpreted like Philip Bayer does in his video?

Some would say that the downwards motion is expressed in a medium and then high range in the Chum Kiu and Biu Jee.

IMO, it *may* not matter what height you start at, but since Siu Nim Tao starts with doing the movement relatively low, that is just the starting point in those styles of Ving Tsun. Otherwise it would be like saying "the straight puch in Siu Nim Tao is to face level, thus, it cannot be used to strike the chest unless later developed in a form." But we know that's not true. The forms give us a starting point for techniques from which we build upon.

[EternalSpring]

Onething that I don't agree with what he said, "When you use the other hand to break your opponent's wrist grip, his free hand can punch you". If you pull your arm back in such a way that you can use his grapping arm to jam his own punching arm, you won't have this problem.

The question is : "If someone hold you, why bother getting out?"

the most dangerous hand is not the one that grabs you, but the other one, witch location is not controlled by your superior bonanza chi sao enhanced cyborg touch.
And his legs.

There's plenty of ways to get rid of a single hold, without force, and with one hand, so, I do agree with WSL, why bother using two hands?

But like I said earlier in this topic, I think WSL knew half about this move, especially when you compare how it is done in the Leung Sheun Lineage.

I precise I don't belong to Leung Sheun Lineage, I'm just a freeloader, a Schnorrer in OC.

I can see what YKW is talking about, it's actually similar to one of the things that I thought WSL was talking about regarding conservation of space w/o taking a step or moving as much. The idea is, is that when you look at that "downward motion" in Siu Nim Tao (Chop Sao?), it is not just one hand doing work, both hands are active and moving (both twisting and moving in diff direction). Some would call it "replacing hands," though that's not the only way to look at it. If my hand that is being grabbed is moving, then the opponents hand, which is grabbing my hand, is also moving (unless he lets me go). This can be applied in a few ways, but the main point is that it's not necessarily two hands needing to team up against one hand. The motion of both arms will also be attacking and effecting the rest of the opponents body as well.

just my 2c