WSL directly

[poulperadieux]

You may not think about this from a grappler point of view. Since I train both WC and grappling, here is my 2 cents.

When one of your opponent hands control one of your wrists, he can guide your arm to jam your other arm, and use his other hand to control your other arm. Now both of your arms are controlled by his hands. Since you have to break his grip before you can punch him, when you are thinking about "break his grip", he is thinking about how to "shoot in" at your leg. He is one step ahead of you in the game.

If you don't want to be forced to play a grappling game, you should break your opponent 1st hand grip ASAP.


I have to disagree with you on this. When your opponent grabs your arm, he has a purpose. His purpose is not just to control one of your arms but to control your entire body.

When you try to punch with your free hand, all your opponent needs to do is to drag your leading arm to "jam" your back striking arm. If you try to kick, your opponent can pull your leading arm downward to force your body weight to shift to your front leg. Your front leg won't even be able to raise up.

Will all these thing happen according to your opponent's plan? It depends on your opponent's skill level and your skill level. It's much easier to prevent it from happening (break your opponent's hold ASAP) than to allow it to happen and fix it afterward.

I understand what you mean, depends each other sensibility.
I prefer Hitting and Kicking, so the hand that grabs me release the pressure while preventing the joint lock and the jam on my grabbed hand using chi sao.

I don't like my hands being on the same side of my body, makes me feel I've got 6 limbs and not 8 like a standard OC practicionner.

[Paddington]

That make sense,

So, why doing it downwards in the form and everyone seems fine that the application is upward ?
.

OK, so with regards to section 8, from that WSL video, he shows us that it is used to change which hand you have in contact with the opponent. Of, course you need to shift your body too!

But why begin with such a low position? That is a good question and I'll try to give you some of my thoughts as to why. Unfortunately this requires a little digression.

At the class I train at, usually we go under rather than over one's own arm when changing which arm is in contact with the opponents, much like when you train a biu sau. If my initial arm, the one in contact with the opponents, is in a relatively high position, the wrist is above the guard hand and it is easy to come underneath.

Say instead my initial contact arm is a bong sau (not a high one but sitting between dai bong sau and bong sau), and the other hand is in a wu sau or tan sau shape (a la kwoon sau). The wrist is lower than that of the guard hand and it is easier to come over the arm to change which arm is in contact.

So to my mind it is low in section 8 to over emphasize when you should change over the top; change over the top when the contact arm is lower than the guard or 'free' arm. In terms of that principle of how to change which arm is contact, I see some of the 'biu saus' in biu jee as complimenting section 8 of SLT; it gives you the alternative where you change under and here the contact arm is in a high position.

Look, this is mainly my own thoughts on the matter and I have to admit that WSL videos and what I have learnt by my own research on the web (and chatting to you lot) is what informs my thoughts here. Yes, I do ask myself why the hell such conversations are absent at my class or why my Sifu shuts down my speech, when I try to talk to him privately about such things. But you know the same thing would happen with any Sifu I may train under, just the points of disagreement will differ.

Anyway, really interested to hear what you think about why I think it is low. Likewise I would really like to know Kev's thoughts on my ideas here.

[Graham H]

Anyway, really interested to hear what you think about why I think it is low. Likewise I would really like to know Kev's thoughts on my ideas here.

I don't like your idea. The reason for the downward actions in forms and drills is to develop and place emphasis on keeping the elbow low. There is a very good reason for it but most like to surround these actions with applications which is up to them.

[Paddington]

I don't like your idea. The reason for the downward actions in forms and drills is to develop and place emphasis on keeping the elbow low. There is a very good reason for it but most like to surround these actions with applications which is up to them.

I am talking about a specific movement and section (8) and not the general point as you suggest. I see the elbow down principle as emphasized more strongly elsewhere. Care to state your explanation of section 8?

[Graham H]

I am talking about a specific movement and section (8) and not the general point as you suggest. I see the elbow down principle as emphasized more strongly elsewhere. Care to state your explanation of section 8?

Ok, its punching concept.

[Graham H]

I don't have sections BTW

[Paddington]

Ok, its punching concept.

I don't want to seem rude but I and others put out explanations or, for want of a better phrase, walk the walk. Looking at your posts I see that very rarely are you able to explain anything. It seems one liners, hyperbole and nothing but hinting is what you do?

How is it a punching concept? Can you actually explain it? And I am talking about all of section 8......

[Graham H]

I don't want to seem rude but I and others put out explanations or, for want of a better phrase, walk the walk. Looking at your posts I see that very rarely are you able to explain anything. It seems one liners, hyperbole and nothing but hinting is what you do?

How is it a punching concept? Can you actually explain it? And I am talking about all of section 8......

Yes, come to my yard and I will show you.

I can explain every aspect and action in the system. It seems you cannot. Until you understand my thinking don't knock it. I used to have the same ideas of Wing Chun as you.

When you understand Ving Tsun it doesn't need long drawn out posts filled with applications and uncertainties. It's easy to work out once you have the right stimulus.

[Paddington]

Yes, come to my yard and I will show you.

I can explain every aspect and action in the system. It seems you cannot. Until you understand my thinking don't knock it. I used to have the same ideas of Wing Chun as you.

When you understand Ving Tsun it doesn't need long drawn out posts filled with applications and uncertainties. It's easy to work out once you have the right stimulus.

That is the thing, every time I or someone else on these boards extends their hand to offer you a platform to tell us your ideas, you refuse to do so. At no point have I knocked your ideas as you have yet to expand upon them! Indeed, that charge is one you are guilty of, not me!

Anyway, I clearly talked about a principle being taught with regards to specific movements in section 8 and not en rote applications. I am sorry your English comprehension is lacking, perhaps I could have explained in more simple terms?

On a final note, I am sure your verbal explanations will have the same if not a greater word count than my post. We are, after all, on a forum and where writing explanations, is what this forum exists for.

EDIT: You know fully well I am in the UK. I am a poor man and I doubt I will ever have the money to travel to ask you in person. If you don't want to say what you think publicly, drop me a PM. I am happy to discuss privately too.

EDIT2: I don't claim to be a Sifu or have all the answers, it puts me in a good position to share ideas and discuss as I don't really have that ego thing. I am always open to changing and revising my thoughts and that is why I ask you and others to explain.

[BPWT]

Paddington, who do you train with?

Sometimes helps to know the lineage.

[Paddington]

I train with one of Ip Chun's students, though my thoughts do differ from what is commonly taught regarding certain aspects. I am just an open minded guy who is willing to listen, discuss and revise opinions.

EDIT: I should say I enjoy deep explanations. For my part I am a maths teacher and I have been working on a wing chun book, all the mathematics and mechanics of it, for some time. Will I ever finish it? Well, I still have a lot to learn but don't we all!

[Graham H]

That is the thing, every time I or someone else on these boards extends their hand to offer you a platform to tell us your ideas, you refuse to do so. At no point have I knocked your ideas as you have yet to expand upon them! Indeed, that charge is one you are guilty of, not me!

Oh calm down petal!

Anyway, I clearly talked about a principle being taught with regards to specific movements in section 8 and not en rote applications. I am sorry your English comprehension is lacking, perhaps I could have explained in more simple terms?

English? What's that?

On a final note, I am sure your verbal explanations will have the same if not a greater word count than my post. We are, after all, on a forum and where writing explanations, is what this forum exists for.

EDIT: You know fully well I am in the UK. I am a poor man and I doubt I will ever have the money to travel to ask you in person. If you don't want to say what you think publicly, drop me a PM. I am happy to discuss privately too.

EDIT2: I don't claim to be a Sifu or have all the answers, it puts me in a good position to share ideas and discuss as I don't really have that ego thing. I am always open to changing and revising my thoughts and that is why I ask you and others to explain.

I fear you may be half ways through a box of kleenex already so I will endevour to explain. As I don't have sections you are referring to the last three actions prior to the 3 punches at the end of SLT are you not?

[Graham H]

I train with one of Ip Chun's students,

That may make things difficult for me.

[Paddington]

Oh calm down petal!
[...]
I fear you may be half ways through a box of kleenex already so I will endevour to explain. As I don't have sections you are referring to the last three actions prior to the 3 punches at the end of SLT are you not?

Yes, I am referring to those actions and also responding to octopus boy's Q. You know saying section 8 is just a way to identify where in the form we are looking at in this discussion. Calling it section 8 obviously worked because you know what I am talking about. A rose by any other name smells just as sweet eh?

Anyway, please explain I am, genuinely, interested in your more thorough explanations (that is a compliment btw)!

That may make things difficult for me.

As I said, I am the type of guy who has an open mind and is not entrenched!

[BPWT]

Well, Graham trained Yip Chun lineage before moving to the WSL method, so in theory it can be explained as he came from someone similar to you.

I trained at Kamon Wing Chun, way back in 2001 I think it was. In that lineage, the movement was seen as a direct application.

My training now sees it a little differently. Mostly what has already been mentioned - a combination of teaching elbow positioning, ideas of replacing hands, and some direct applications (usually shown to illustrate a point, more than anything else) for freeing the hands when things get a bit jammed up/squashed up - which can sometimes happen if you've screwed up your distancing.

Beginners also use this movement/are taught this movement as a counter to both hands being pinned and crossed (say, left hand pinned and pressed over right hand). It isn't the most realistic attack but the reason they learn this drill/exercise is to focus on the twisting motion of the hands/arms, combined with some upper-body rotation... which appears elsewhere in other possible applications and Chi Sau, etc.

In that case, the application isn't really meant to be taken 'as is', but its for students to get familiar with certain body methods and movements.

But this pretty much true with most things in the forms. You can find applications if you want, and it can be fun to do so, but the forms (IMO) aren't teaching you 1,2,3 style applications. They are teaching you body methods, concepts, etc.

(And yes, Graham, sometimes they are not simple and easy concepts and body methods )