Yiquan/internal sparring

[YouKnowWho]

Let's exampling whether "internal" sparring is practical or not. Let's have a simple definition of "internal" as

- You use your waist (Dantian) to push/pull your arm.
- Your body function as one single unit. When you move, all body parts move. When you stop, all body parts stop.

If you use your waist (Dantian) to push/pull your arm, since you have to move your waist first before the power can be sent to your arm, there is always a small delay between your waist motion and your arm motion. Can you afford that small "delay" in combat?

I has tried to let my waist to push/pull my arms. This way my opponent can only see my body movement but can't see my arms movement. It's good to express Shenfa and feel great too. But when I see my opponent's opening, I start to move my waist, when my waist pull/push my arm and my arm push/pull my hand, my opponent's opening is already closed.

In the following clip between 0.58 to 1.10, you can see CXW faiji in combat speed.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MrF_o9BdJ4M

Is CXW moving fast enough? Within 12 seconds timeframe, he did 14 moves. That's average 12/14 = 0.86 second per move. To me, this kind of speed is far from "combat speed". If CXW's opponent only drops his guard for 3/4 (0.75) second, CXW's punch will miss his opponent's head.

[Robinhood]

Let's exampling whether "internal" sparring is practical or not. Let's have a simple definition of "internal" as

- You use your waist (Dantian) to push/pull your arm.
- Your body function as one single unit. When you move, all body parts move. When you stop, all body parts stop.

If you use your waist (Dantian) to push/pull your arm, since you have to move your waist first before the power can be sent to your arm, there is always a small delay between your waist motion and your arm motion. Can you afford that small "delay" in combat?

I has tried to let my waist to push/pull my arms. This way my opponent can only see my body movement but can't see my arms movement. It's good to express Shenfa and feel great too. But when I see my opponent's opening, I start to move my waist, when my waist pull/push my arm and my arm push/pull my hand, my opponent's opening is already closed.

In the following clip between 0.58 to 1.10, you can see CXW faiji in combat speed.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MrF_o9BdJ4M

Is CXW moving fast enough? Within 12 seconds timeframe, he did 14 moves. That's average 12/14 = 0.86 second per move. To me, this kind of speed is far from "combat speed". If CXW's opponent only drops his guard for 3/4 (0.75) second, CXW's punch will miss his opponent's head.

I think you are trying to compare 2 different things, that are not compariable.

Sparring at body level is not sparring using internal, when contact is made, internal will then be applyable, internal doing work, not external moving.

[YouKnowWho]

Sparring at body level is not sparring using internal, when contact is made, internal will then be applyable, internal doing work, not external moving.

Are you saying

- All the footwork, body movement (Shenfa), arm movement are all "external".
- When you throw a punch, it starts as external. The moment that your fist "contact" your opponent's face, it suddently turns into "internal".

[Robinhood]

Are you saying

- All the footwork, body movement (Shenfa), arm movement are all "external".
- When you throw a punch, it starts as external. The moment that your fist "contact" your opponent's face, it suddently turns into "internal".

No, not really, if you move, you can be moving externally or internally, it depends what is driving it.

Energy can flow in and out, if you can only flow outward, you are only external, if you can flow energy in then you can use internal too.

[YouKnowWho]

you can be moving externally or internally, it depends what is driving it.

If you just walk "3 steps - left foot, right foot, left foot", what's the "external" way of walking and what's the "internal" way of walking? How do you start your 1st step of your "internal" walking? What drive it?

[Robinhood]

If you just walk "3 steps - left foot, right foot, left foot", what's the "external" way of walking and what's the "internal" way of walking? How do you start your 1st step of your "internal" walking? What drive it?

Its in all how you use your mind, and if the body responds to the mind when trying to move using intent. If the body is in the wrong state, like out of balance and not center intention maintained, moving internally probably will not be an option.

[Matthew]

Let's have a simple definition of "internal" as

- You use your waist (Dantian) to push/pull your arm.
- Your body function as one single unit. When you move, all body parts move. When you stop, all body parts stop.

That's standard basics for most Chinese art practice (especially those called "external") given how important dantian spot is as our human center of gravity.

Your second part seems a bit vague though - move as one unit?

I see a couple interpretations possibly arising from your terms - one is that the body moves with a single center of gravity (as opposed to multiple as in the taiji term "double weighted"), another possibility is that you mean with all parts of the body supporting the moving part. That would be moving 'as a synchronized' unit - which is also vague.

All of that has little to do with internal Nei Gong practice.

You may be confusing the terms Internal/External with different chinese terms. (Nei Jia/Wai Jia 内家／外嫁 which are geographic references, and Nei gong/ Wai Gong 内功／外功 which are practice references).

So many people on this forum can't figure out the chinese characters for these two different terms - both of which can be incompletely said to be "Internal / External"

First we need to know what it is we're talking about - then we can talk about what it means.

If you use your waist (Dantian) to push/pull your arm, since you have to move your waist first before the power can be sent to your arm, there is always a small delay between your waist motion and your arm motion. Can you afford that small "delay" in combat?

No matter how fast you can move your hands or waist - there is always someone faster. Understanding positioning and strategy is more important that depending on speed.

Speed matters, but it is less important than positioning in self defense. A slow fighter can look like a fast fighter if he has better positioning than someone who uses excessive movement (even if the person is significantly faster).

[YouKnowWho]

Understanding positioning and strategy is more important that depending on speed.

This is the most common execuses for "internal" guys who think speed and power are not important. What if your opponent also

- understands position and strategy, but he is faster than you?
- be able to use 4 oz to against 1000 lb, but he can deliever 1000 lb and you can't?

If your opponent holds a knife and stab at your chest within 1/2 second. If you have to use 3/4 second to dodge it, you will be dead.

[Matthew]

This is the most common execuses for "internal" guys who think speed and power are not important.

Okay, but what does that have to do with positioning having importance over speed? What is "Internal" that you keep mentioning? Is it one of the Chinese terms I mentioned?

What if your opponent also

- understands position and strategy, but he is faster than you?

Depends on what we are talking about by position and strategy. And a multitude of other factors (how many other attackers, how well you slept and how clear the tracks of your mind are the moment of the incident, what weapons he/they have, etc etc etc.)

Your question is really way too general of a question to be of use beyond engaging the thought process behind self-defense.

- be able to use 4 oz to against 1000 lb, but he can deliever 1000 lb and you can't?

How is his delivery of it? With his elbow only?

What if I can deliver 999 lb force with my finger tips? would that be better than his theoretical delivery of 1001 pounds with only his shoulder? All too vague and detached from a single flash of an eye.

Again - seems a bit too general, but may help people who don't think about these things with "thought provoking"

If your opponent holds a knife and stab at your chest within 1/2 second. If you have to use 3/4 second to dodge it, you will be dead.

Seems a bit slow with a knife - but if you cannot deflect the attack while more efficiently countering - then yes his speed beat your understanding of positioning.

Whether or not this single theoretical scenario is true or would play out does not indicate what is most important to practice when training for self defense though.

Let's turn your scenario around to show just how shallow it really outlines the need for any one trait (no matter if it is speed, positioning, etc.)

If your opponent holds a knife and stab at your chest within 1/2 second. Even if you can 1/4 second dodge it, you will be dead if he has enough strategic positioning to have closed off your only gates to "dodge" out from.

Just goes to show that generalizations and theoretical scenarios don't provide enough evidence to train purely based on one or two of them - although they obviously provide thought-provoking situations to discuss.

[Robinhood]

This is the most common execuses for "internal" guys who think speed and power are not important. What if your opponent also

- understands position and strategy, but he is faster than you?
- be able to use 4 oz to against 1000 lb, but he can deliever 1000 lb and you can't?

If your opponent holds a knife and stab at your chest within 1/2 second. If you have to use 3/4 second to dodge it, you will be dead.

What if, what if, ........I wonder why , trying to remember every condition and counter will never work, if you have to think about what you can do, you will be late every time.

You need to be able to react with out thinking about it, if you are doing internal it will be a lot easier to react without thinking much.

Thinking works for training purposes because you can slow everything down and try to reprogram the body.

[YouKnowWho]

This is what you have said.

Speed matters, but it is less important than positioning in self defense.

This is what I have said,

What if your opponent also understands position and strategy, but he is faster than you?

To say that speed is less important than ... seems a bit too general.

if you are doing internal it will be a lot easier to react without thinking much.

I'll say the opposite - If you are doing "external", it will be a lot easier to react without thinking much.

"Internal" guys like to talk about "意气力(Yi Qi Li)", external guys don't.

[Robinhood]

This is what you have said.



This is what I have said,



To say that speed is less important than ... seems a bit too general.



I'll say the opposite - If you are doing "external", it will be a lot easier to react without thinking much.

"Internal" guys like to talk about "意气力(Yi Qi Li)", external guys don't.

How can you weigh the difference if you say internal does not exists . ?, if you could do both, then you can compare , only knowing one side does not give you first hand knowledge to compare. What ever reacts faster is probably internal reaction anyway not external. Having time to think then react is more external reaction,do you drive your car externally or internally .?, you don't tell your arm and foot every little correction consciously thinking about them.

External is using Li.

[Matthew]

To say that speed is less important than ... seems a bit too general.


I'll say the opposite - If you are doing "external", it will be a lot easier to react without thinking much.

I've already twice asked you to define Internal/External terms in Chinese so we can understand what you're trying to say.


A good roofer first learns how to hold a hammer, then how to hold a nail, then how to hit the nail while positioning body and mind to move to the next nail. Through regular practicing of the basics - he will develop speed and power in his work.


Positioning (of self/posture first- then in relation to others) is a strong foundation to start - speed and power alone don't have principles - and so they depend on positioning.

When a strong foundation is laid, speed and power are naturally developed.

"Internal" guys like to talk about "意气力(Yi Qi Li)", external guys don't.

Contrary to your claims, I know people who identify as "External (外功）practice" and "Internal (内功) practice“ who use all these terms. Even many Chinese teachers I've seen on youtube use these terms no matter what distinctions are drawn。

In fact, depending on how these terms you put are translated - I've seen many classic boxing teachers even talk about these terms 意气力(Yi Qi Li) - in fact most martial arts talk about them.


Further - It is just interesting with all your years of practice that you generalize and label arbitrarily-designated groups.. all while you can't even define in Chinese terms the very terms you are using to label these "groups".
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Isn't this thread about Yi Quan (Intent Style Boxing) of Wang Xiang Zhai and sparring of his disciples? If you can't define Internal or External - why not simply discuss what practices Yi Quan has that could benefit others?

[YouKnowWho]

I've already twice asked you to define Internal/External terms in Chinese so we can understand what you're trying to say.

I already did.

Let's have a simple definition of "internal" as

- You use your waist (Dantian) to push/pull your arm.
- Your body function as one single unit. When you move, all body parts move. When you stop, all body parts stop.

There is no "external" and "internal" but the "right way to do thing" and the "wrong way to do thing". Even the right way to do thing such as to let your body to push your arm will need to be modified in combat in order to gain speed.

Let me borrow Adam Hsu's definition here.

http://imageshack.us/a/img534/2232/internalb.jpg

Translated:

The word "internal" was invented by a none TCMA guy (a scholar) Hwang Zung-Si at the end of the Ming dynasty.

External is a term to look down upon others. At the end of the Ching dynasty, XingYi and Bagua guys treated every other styles as "flower fist". Later on they accepted Taiji as one of them. ... Nobody want to be "external" ... The difference between external and internal is not the difference between styles but the difference between training level ... Every style when you started it, you are training external. When you get into detail, you are training internal ... Since all TCMA systems take this path, there is no such thing as "internal" and "external".

Adam Hsu and I share the same views on this subject.

[Dragonzbane76]

at least they have gloves on and going with a little intent. Half the trouble with most "traditional" schools these days, they don't pad up and go with some commitment.