Opening /crossing at start of forms

[wingchunIan]

Are you talking about their own centerline or the central line between themselves and the opponent? Folks who explain the crossing hands as defining one's own centerline often explain the following 'punch' as defining the central line between oneself and the opponent.

Anyhow, bad coordination doesn't mean they don't know where their centerline is. You think the majority of people can't close their eyes and touch their nose, sternum or navel, and that they'll be able to do so after crossing their arms in front of their body?

Your first paragraph is nothing to do with me. Knowing where the centre of your own body is, is not the same as being able to identify the opposite end of a line away from the body. being able to touch your nose with your eyes closed is not the same as being able to find and control the centreline automatically and without thought, not just close to your body but also at the furthest point away.

[jimhalliwell]

Your first paragraph is nothing to do with me. Knowing where the centre of your own body is, is not the same as being able to identify the opposite end of a line away from the body. being able to touch your nose with your eyes closed is not the same as being able to find and control the centreline automatically and without thought, not just close to your body but also at the furthest point away.

Knowing where your centre is one thing actually being able to protect it and work down it are two separate things. I see countless chi sau demos of people training with centres totally open to attack! very sad

Jim.

[Phil Redmond]

This is the TWC Pin San Central line theory.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cBPmlvAB8jA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AdOmnxmnfv8

[LFJ]

Your first paragraph is nothing to do with me. Knowing where the centre of your own body is, is not the same as being able to identify the opposite end of a line away from the body. being able to touch your nose with your eyes closed is not the same as being able to find and control the centreline automatically and without thought, not just close to your body but also at the furthest point away.

Well that does go with the first paragraph of my post. That's central line, between oneself and the opponent, defined according to some by the opening 'punch'. Centerline, one's vertical center of mass, when squared is defined according to some by the opening crossing of arms low and high. Yet I still hold that any normal feeling human being with bodily awareness knows where their center of mass is without needing to 'define' it in such a way. What you're discussing though is the ability to protect it by controlling central line, the most direct path to it.

To continue on the topic, other ideas implicit in the actions are that lower gate may be guarded with mostly straight arms, while anything higher maintains the working bent arm range that all the main shapes (taan, bong, fuk, etc.) keep. With few exceptions will you need to change this range. The other thing drawn is the limit of necessary lateral movement, i.e. that you need not move your arms outward beyond your torso for deflection, as nothing out there would hit you anyway. Shifting, when necessary, is covered in CK.

Some of these ideas I think are a bit too obvious to need these actions to be practiced, but I like it better than 'kick blocks' and other applications people come up with anyway.

[LFJ]

Yeah, sure.

[poulperadieux]

Are you talking about their own centerline or the central line between themselves and the opponent? Folks who explain the crossing hands as defining one's own centerline often explain the following 'punch' as defining the central line between oneself and the opponent.

Anyhow, bad coordination doesn't mean they don't know where their centerline is. You think the majority of people can't close their eyes and touch their nose, sternum or navel, and that they'll be able to do so after crossing their arms in front of their body?

About 70 percent of my students have a bad corporal localisation to my standards when they come as beginners.

And I don't tell about the shoe and chair generation and the lumbar hyper kyphosis that gives an endemic hypotrophia of the gluteus medius and an hypertrophia of the paravertebral muscles of the area witch are not originally for the main work... (Christophe Carrio, Tom Myers for more details).


And I don't quote one of my senior student last night, on witch I could tell she was suffering from an ankle problem as she presented a bascule of the pelvis and htat her posture bended to the left during the siu lim tao.

It takes around 6 to 8 months to one year for a student who takes himself or herself in charge to get back the lumbar curvation and reverse the process of the chair and shoes (or basket shoes but I won't tell here, it's complicated and I'm not sure anyone will read, I'm not sure anyone read this so I can say banana, write banana if you read and have questions, please, I like banana, since I saw Despictable me and the banana song go on youtube and post the video here it will be fun, I'll laugh I tell you).

So You can tell : Everyone knows where their nose is... But, sadly, You are missing a lot of things.

Go banana !

[wingchunIan]

Well that does go with the first paragraph of my post. That's central line, between oneself and the opponent, defined according to some by the opening 'punch'. Centerline, one's vertical center of mass, when squared is defined according to some by the opening crossing of arms low and high. Yet I still hold that any normal feeling human being with bodily awareness knows where their center of mass is without needing to 'define' it in such a way.

The crossing of arms IMO has nothing whatsoever to do with knowing where your centre of mass is and I have never seen anyone suggest that it has. Your teaching appears to make distinctions between "centreline" and "central line" other lineages do not have the same terminology which could explain it. I suspect that what you refer to as the centre line is either the Jic seen (body axis) or chung sum seen (central heart line) according to the terminology used in my lineage and what you refer to as the central line is what we would refer to as the tse m seen (meridian line). As the three lines are intrinsically linked we tend to simply refer to them collectively as the centreline.

What you're discussing though is the ability to protect it by controlling central line, the most direct path to it.

you can't defend it or control it if you dont know where it is intuitively hence the repetitive focus upon it during SNT practice.

To continue on the topic, other ideas implicit in the actions are that lower gate may be guarded with mostly straight arms, while anything higher maintains the working bent arm range that all the main shapes (taan, bong, fuk, etc.) keep.

I would contest that the arm being straight at low level is actually only a product of correct elbow positioning and that this movement like much of the first section of SNT is reinforcing the correct elbow distance and hence fighting range.

Some of these ideas I think are a bit too obvious to need these actions to be practiced, but I like it better than 'kick blocks' and other applications people come up with anyway

In Wing Chun and in fighting there is no such thing as too obvious. Lut sao jic chung is pretty obvious but still requires constant practice

[Graham H]

Lut sao jic chung is pretty obvious but still requires constant practice

Ian

How do you define LSJC?

GH

[LoneTiger108]

One of my students had some interesting insight into the Cross down at the beginning of forms.

Just wondering how other people explain the reasoning for this action?

Paul
www.moifa.co.uk

I have refrained from posting here for one reason... this movement makes up the first line from my curriculum at The Yum Yeurng Academy. It's difficult to explain reasoning behind it without understanding what context you are discussing... as defense or attack to start with?

It's like applying for a job without a decent person specification!! You will just say what you want rather than be specific in your presentation in relation to what is needed

[LFJ]

@Ian,

What I refer to is this;

Jung-sam together forms the noun 'center'. Jung-sam-sin = 'centerline'.
Jung alone is the adjective 'central' describing the line, Jung-sin = 'central line'.

Regardless of terminology, lineage, or even martial arts though, these are just physical truths regardless of whether they are acknowledged or not; the body's vertical axis and the most direct path between that of two bodies.

[poulperadieux]

@Ian,

What I refer to is this;

Jung-sam together forms the noun 'center'. Jung-sam-sin = 'centerline'.
Jung alone is the adjective 'central' describing the line, Jung-sin = 'central line'.

Regardless of terminology, lineage, or even martial arts though, these are just physical truths regardless of whether they are acknowledged or not; the body's vertical axis and the most direct path between that of two bodies.

ok...

Geometric truth.

But considering the brain and the particularity of one eye, and, as we are not cyclops, both eyes functioning together, witch is at least Three more annoying parameters (there's more, but let it go for now), there's no such thing for your brain and body as the superiority of the straight line over the curve.

Some time, because you Human create space and time distorsion, the curve can seem faster than the straight line, as time is a relative notion, depends witch side of the toilets you are.


In european fencing in the XVII th century, there was a man who wrote extensively on how fencing was geometric and prédictive, "there is no such thing such like surprise in fencing" ("L'académie de l'épée" Gérard Thibault d’Anvers, last spanish Maestro before the decay of the art due to the geometry theory wandering).



Later Italians, and French learning from Italians proved him terribly Wrong.

But History repeats itself, all the time.

[wingchunIan]

Ian

How do you define LSJC?

GH

The concept is very simply if there is nothing stopping your hand then it should strike to the jic seen of the opponent. If something does stop your hand then the instant that that something is removed the hand should strike in an automatic reaction, like releasing a bent cane. This requires constant relaxed forward intent (intent to strike to the jic seen of the opponent) acheived through maintaining a slight contraction of the triceps when an initial attempt to strike is stopped or an opponents strike is intercepted. The degree of contraction of the triceps required reduces over time according to the increasing ability of the practitioner to switch off and relax all antagonistic muscle groups more completely. Obviously there is a big difference between pushing / leaning and forward intent as the former can be exploited relatively easily and is therefore to be avoided.
I was simply using LSJC as an example of something that is easy in theory and can be practised from day one but improves dramatically with training and repetition (response time becomes shorter, cognitive interference reduces, telegraphing of intent reduces etc etc). Same with the centreline. Everyone knows roughly where it is but the ability to find and therefore control it under pressure and the level of accuracy with which you can do so increases with practise and repetition.
So what is your interpretation of LSJC?

[Graham H]

The concept is very simply if there is nothing stopping your hand then it should strike to the jic seen of the opponent. If something does stop your hand then the instant that that something is removed the hand should strike in an automatic reaction, like releasing a bent cane. This requires constant relaxed forward intent (intent to strike to the jic seen of the opponent) acheived through maintaining a slight contraction of the triceps when an initial attempt to strike is stopped or an opponents strike is intercepted. The degree of contraction of the triceps required reduces over time according to the increasing ability of the practitioner to switch off and relax all antagonistic muscle groups more completely. Obviously there is a big difference between pushing / leaning and forward intent as the former can be exploited relatively easily and is therefore to be avoided.
I was simply using LSJC as an example of something that is easy in theory and can be practised from day one but improves dramatically with training and repetition (response time becomes shorter, cognitive interference reduces, telegraphing of intent reduces etc etc). Same with the centreline. Everyone knows roughly where it is but the ability to find and therefore control it under pressure and the level of accuracy with which you can do so increases with practise and repetition.
So what is your interpretation of LSJC?

Have you eaten a book on bio mechanics today?

[poulperadieux]

Have you eaten a book on bio mechanics today?

Eat goat mlik for a change Graham, it pacifies the heart, and clears the anger in the heart.


No, like I care, keep on the blood man, you are funny as hell !

[BPWT]

No, like I care, keep on the blood man, you are funny as hell !

It was only a matter of time before Kevin's blood confession and Graham's rabbit training... came together: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9zcxVpHRgE8



Lat Sau Jik Chung in motion.