Results 1 to 11 of 11

Thread: What is the core of Shaolin?

  1. #1

    What is the core of Shaolin?

    I want to hear people's opinion as to what constitutes the core idea/essence of Shaolin Gong Fu. I'm just talking about the martial art here, not the whole experience, Chan, philosophy, ect.

    It seems that many Shaolin practitioners today focus on form collecting and there's always a lot of talk in this forum of learning complete subsystems. I find it hard to believe, myself, that Shaolin lay practitioners of a few centuries ago were studying 200 different forms or 9 subsystems or creating weapons that were never actually used in any battles.

    If Xiao Hong Quan is the "mother of boxing," why do we need so many other sets? To my way of thinking, more than 90% of material in the myriad of forms is redundant and just reworked patterns of the same material in other Songshan forms. If we have Xiao Hong and Da Hong, how much of the other stuff is even pertinent, as far as empty hand.

    My opinion is, Shaolin has always been based on conditioning and hard training. I feel this is what distinguishes Shaolin from other styles of Gong Fu and has helped it, in part, retain its' fame over the years. I don't feel Shaolin has superior techniques to the other northern systems, but I think traditionally, there was a stronger work ethic associated with Shaolin and because of that, the art tended to produce many high caliber martial artists, just because they put in longer and harder hours. Nothing to do with a superior style or methods...

    So...are the 72 arts, the foundation, is it just hard work as the season change? What do you guys think? What is the underlying core of Shaolin Quan as a martial art, after you strip away the superficial stuff we see everyday?
    Quote Originally Posted by YouKnowWho View Post
    This is 100% TCMA principle. It may be used in non-TCMA also. Since I did learn it from TCMA, I have to say it's TCMA principle.
    Quote Originally Posted by YouKnowWho View Post
    We should not use "TCMA is more than combat" as excuse for not "evolving".

    You can have Kung Fu in cooking, it really has nothing to do with fighting!

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Jan 1970
    Location
    Canada!
    Posts
    23,110
    1. Chan
    2. Medicine
    3. Martial Arts


    Everything that is done is revived.
    Martial Arts had their high point in the 16th-19th centuries and then diminished in value vs the advent of the ubiquitous use of guns.

    What remains is the curriculum as practiced now. Many people practice many styles that attribute their origin to the Shaolin Temple. Not many Kung fu schools bother with teaching Chan or Medicine, so, no loss.

    It's kind of like how Yoga is just postures now instead of all the other stuff that is supposed to be incorporated along side with it.

    But, beacons exist and keep the light going, even if the greater mass has only flickering bulbs.
    Kung Fu is good for you.

  3. #3
    Even though I never studied Songshan Shaolin, Northern Shaolin was my first art and my first love. Shaolin is a conglomerate, made up of multiple arts invented inside the temple and brought from the outside. I agree entirely that Shaolin has too many forms, and that Xiao Hong Quan and Da Hong Quan are probably some of the oldest sets. Now that I do baji, I cringe when I see Shaolin Baji, and Shaolin Tongbei, in my opinion, does not compare to Baiyuan Tongbei, etc. Just because you learn one form (bengbu, or what Shaolin calls it Shaolin Qixing Tanglangquan) does it mean you know the system?

    If I ever get the chance to learn Songshan Shaolin, I would focus on Xiao Hong Quan, Da Hong Quan, and Luo Han Shi Ba Shou (the standard Shandong Huaquan version). Weapons- Yin Shou Gun, Mei Hua Dao. I never understood why Shaolin practicioners love so many weapon sets. I don't think that in its infancy, monks tired from meditation picked up guan dao's, spears. My baji teacher told me that the original Shaolin weapon wasn't even the typical qimeigun that we see associate with Shaolin everyday, it was more likely a shorter staff or cane that they could bring with them into the mountains.

    I personally like having 3 sets because it shows a progression- beginner, intermediate, advanced. Many of the sets taught in Songshan Shaolin don't show that progression. Maybe I'm too influenced by Adam Hsu for my own good.

    I just wanted to share my opinion, but I know I'm not qualified because I don't do Shaolin.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    DengFeng
    Posts
    1,469
    But you see Kellen, you can't just talk about the Martial Art.

    People argue with me about the meaning of Gong Fu and I cannot speak for all styles, but within Shaolin I can speak with absolute concrete conviction that few are qualified to over-rule. Shaolin is inseperable from Chan. This permeates all its methods. There is wisdom to practicing form based on this ideal.



    But if you really want to isolate the Martial Art, the myriad forms are less useful to you.

    Shaolin 'Combat' skill is based more upon its principles, maxims and precepts.

    1. Xin Yu Yi He. A concept that applies as much to combat as to the spiritual realm.

    Shaolin holds that you must be well attuned to your instincts. Fearsome combat does not always find you in the same emotional state. It is important to acknowledge to yourself which state you are in.

    The feeling of righteous indignation will cause you to ball your fists in rage and assume an offensive attitude. However you cannot rely on this feeling. Sometime you will be afraid and think only of defence... In this humour it is foolish to take an offensive attitude, and you should rely on defensive skill and the open palm.

    To Quote from Sun Tzu;

    1. Sun Tzu said: The good fighters of old first put themselves beyond the possibility of defeat, and then waited for an opportunity of defeating the enemy.
    2. To secure ourselves against defeat lies in our own hands, but the opportunity of defeating the enemy is provided by the enemy himself.
    3. Thus the good fighter is able to secure himself against defeat, but cannot make certain of defeating the enemy.
    4. Hence the saying: One may know how to conquer without being able to do it.



    This is very much the Shaolin attitude and a great emphasis is placed on defensive skill.
    However within this there are principles that must be observed;

    Namely, the principe of 'Sensation';

    Defense relies on sensation. The perception of the opponents attack. There are two major types. One vision the other feeling.

    When contact has been made you can rely on feeling to perceive your enemy and a great deal of Shaolin shou fa is designed for this situation. From a bridge.

    However, when contact is avoided and the opponent always withdraws his hands from yours, you must rely on vision to perceive his attacks. From this position the shou fa used is VERY different. This method is called the 'Shields'.

    Shaolin is perfectly happy to remain in non-contact and will not actively seek a bridge.

    Once these two methods of defence are well trained counter attack comes very naturally. These defensive methods should be trained far more than other aspects.



    In short I would say at the core of Shaolin combat skill is the concept of perceiving your instinct and using it to your advantage, and the skill of an excellent defence.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by RenDaHai View Post
    But if you really want to isolate the Martial Art, the myriad forms are less useful to you.
    That's what I'm trying to do...I know Gong Fu is a sweeping term and a real big box, I knew Chan was going to come up in this discussion, but to reiterate, I'm not talking about the whole package that is Shaolin, or the whole culture.

    For this discussion I'm referring to just the martially applicable "combat" part. I think you should be able to describe the core or "essence" of your fighting art in a simple sentence/statement. It's over simplifying, but that's the point. I also expect different people to have a different experience and express it differently, even contrary to another. I'm just curious as to what the folks who study Shaolin consider the core of the martial application, i.e. the "fighting part" of Shaolin.

    For example, to my way of thinking I would summarize the core of Karate to be linear striking. I think the essence of Wing Chun is trapping and in-fighting. I would describe Muay Thai as being based on powerful attacks.

    Of course in any of these arts we can get into self development, inner peace, chi cultivation or whatever...but as far as the fighting part goes....

    Quote Originally Posted by RenDaHai View Post
    In short I would say at the core of Shaolin combat skill is the concept of perceiving your instinct and using it to your advantage, and the skill of an excellent defence.
    This is the type of answer I was looking for, a short summary of an individuals view of the fighting aspect.

    P.S. I do enjoy and respect the insights you bring in Shaolin as a greater entity. I do recognize Gong Fu is a very big box and the combat part may be of little of no importance to some people's Gong Fu. To me it's kind of my thing, my favorite aspect, but you probably gathered that.
    Quote Originally Posted by YouKnowWho View Post
    This is 100% TCMA principle. It may be used in non-TCMA also. Since I did learn it from TCMA, I have to say it's TCMA principle.
    Quote Originally Posted by YouKnowWho View Post
    We should not use "TCMA is more than combat" as excuse for not "evolving".

    You can have Kung Fu in cooking, it really has nothing to do with fighting!

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Jan 1970
    Location
    Canada!
    Posts
    23,110
    There is nothing in empty hand martial arts that is martially applicable in any real sense of the word these days.

    A person who is learning traditional martial arts probably isn't training for anything other than personal interest and growth.
    Kung Fu is good for you.

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    DengFeng
    Posts
    1,469
    Cheers Kellen, Yeah I get ya.

    One could argue at the core of Shaolin combat skill is the training of the mind. The intense purpose of a disciplined intent. This is why Shaolin Kung Fu is strong, and also why you cannot isolate Shaolin from Chan.

    But this gets wearisome and there is little useful technical information in saying it. A technical discussion is always welcome:

    I will sum up Shaolins technical aspect with as much brevity as I can in a phrase used by my teachers:

    Always patient and powerful in defence, like wearing spiked armour.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Nov 2003
    Location
    Sichuan, China
    Posts
    106
    The core of Shaolin is jibengong. The jibengong are your catalog of basics. Typically 18 movements and very little variation from monk to monk. Maintaining these skills will allow you to walk into any school in the world and be respectable. Many teachers may not know anything about your latest obscure hand form but they'll definitely be looking at your stances and movements. If you have solid footwork and snappy technique then you've made your own Shifu proud.

    Whether you're a fighter, a dancer, or just trying to get exercise..jibengong is how you will be judged by your shifu, your peers, and yourself.

    Most people catch themselves on at least a few of them, "Oh man, I need to practice that one more"

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    Pound Town
    Posts
    7,856
    the core of shaolin is superhuman ability through time and effort.

    thousand pounds of great strength, hands breaking rocks, and three layers of skin.

    Honorary African American
    grandmaster instructor of Wombat Combat The Lost Art of Anal Destruction™®LLC .
    Senior Business Director at TEAM ASSHAMMER consulting services ™®LLC

  10. #10
    What is the core of Shaolin?

    Modern interpretive dance!

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Jan 1970
    Location
    Calgary, Canada
    Posts
    520
    Quote Originally Posted by Kellen Bassette View Post

    For example, to my way of thinking I would summarize the core of Karate to be linear striking.

    I would summarize karate as: block with power and counter strike with power, in other words its a style based on powerful block/striking combinations.

    Shaolin, in contrast, could be described as: evade and deflect with softness and agility and counter with sudden, heavy strength. A fighting approach particularly suited to fighting with weapons, and weapons were historically much more important to Shaolin than barehand fighting. The Shaolin that has been passed on in our tradition includes a saying, "Shaolin begins with 'Ji Ben Dong Zuo 基本動作' and ends with 'Ji Ben Dong Zuo'." It is this set (in addition with Lohan Kai Men 羅漢開門/Lohan Ma Deng Cao 羅漢馬鐙操) that all beginners in the lineage I practice learn. 'Ji Ben Dong Zuo' can be simply translated as 'basics' or 'fundamentals', but its name suggests a deeper meaning. 'Ji 基' means base or foundation; 'Ben 本' means roots or source; 'dong 動' means 'to use' or 'to act', however this character has even a deeper meaning and is made up of two characters 'Zhong 重' which means heavy and 'Li 力' which means 'force' or 'strength'; the last character 'Zuo 作' means 'to do' and also has a deeper meaning and is made up of two characters: "a 人- person, 乍 suddenly active". There is saying about Shaolin that has been passed on from our older generation which says "accept (an attack) lightly, but return (with your attack) heavily. A humours hyperbole passed on in our lineage says that "in ancient times a Shaolin master could punch one side of a mountain and kill a buffalo on the other side".​​ This is a fundamental concept to Shaolin. Developing this fundamental ability takes more than forms practice, one must also practice sandbag punching (Da Sha Bao - 打 沙包), finger thrusting (Cha Shou Zhi - 插 手指), sand bag snatching (Zhua Sha Bao - 抓沙包 ), stone seizing ( Shi Zhuo - 石捉 ), as well as other methods, to developed both the ability to evade and strike with sudden heavy strength.

    However, boiling Shaolin martial arts down to a simple concept is misleading. Traditional Song Shan Shaolin martial arts were not based on a single premise but on military strategies which were developed by experienced military men. Its fighting principles in many ways mirrored the military strategies used by the ancient Chinese warriors and largely based on strategic principles, not on a single tactical idea and training methodology. These included military strategies such as ("聲東擊西 Sheng Dong Ji Xi") which meant that one had to surprise the enemy by attacking him where he least expects it and; ("打草驚蛇 "Da Cao Jing She") which meant when one doesn't know the enemies strength, first launch a direct but weak attack to observe the enemies reactions, then strike with heavy strength at his weakness, among others. The monks of Shaolin understood that no one could master a myriad of effective tactics, but that in combat there was great value in expanding ones strategic vocabulary and skill sets.
    Last edited by r.(shaolin); 05-03-2013 at 08:02 PM.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •