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Thread: Why you don't understand "Internal" yet..

  1. #106
    Quote Originally Posted by xinyidizi View Post
    If by the martial art part you mean the fighting part then I'm not sure how getting kicked in the nuts or getting knocked down can give us health benefits.

    It is the interaction of energy between 2 or more people which helps you develop IMA.

    Without that interaction , you have no clue what your even working on, that interaction does not include ego building or who can beat each other up, that does not help you to develop yourself, that just leads to big head and no IMA development.

    The goal is develop internal, other benefits like application will naturally develop , but practicing and developing is different from testing, you can test, but that is all your doing, then go back to developing .

  2. #107
    Quote Originally Posted by Robinhood View Post
    It is the interaction of energy between 2 or more people which helps you develop IMA.

    Without that interaction , you have no clue what your even working on, that interaction does not include ego building or who can beat each other up, that does not help you to develop yourself, that just leads to big head and no IMA development.

    The goal is develop internal, other benefits like application will naturally develop , but practicing and developing is different from testing, you can test, but that is all your doing, then go back to developing .
    I know. IMA can offer many ways of partner training that can help self awareness, health, improving the Qi flow and at the same time help you with developing skills that can be used in fighting(actually hurting someone). Wether someone wants to go that path or not is a personal choice and health oriented people can also train some of the methods that are meant for fighting like PH but actual combat training is certainly not a good idea for health.


    There is a clear border between health and combat at a certain point but before that health and combat also have many similar objectives. In ima without some neigong or as some say self cultivation there is no way one can progress in some aspects of fighting. People can choose to do external and get the fighting results they want but if someone wants to learn for example taiji fighting he has to do his homework in health and self cultivation first or he would end up in another path.
    Last edited by xinyidizi; 05-11-2013 at 09:31 AM.

  3. #108
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    I have yet to figure out what "internal" really is, when referencing what people call IMA. Honestly, most people who study what is called internal can be whooped by little old ladies on their way to Sunday church.
    Pardon the hyperbole but most IMA fellows lack the basic 'fighting skills' i.e. basic punching, kicking or running skills. Secondly, because they might be hurt by stuff like boxing, karate or TKD they, they imagine that what is named internal is superior to what is called 'external', not knowing they are the same coin, different side. This is my view and one view only but I do realize that there area few (the few) who are truly skillful in IMA and they regularly compete and share with other arts (external) as part of a learning continuium as opposed to a one stop ending place for their sacred art.

    IMA (the totality of its raison d'etre) (the absolute art) is vastly different from the common IMA that all allegedly embrace so my first point is the common attribute that we are all aware of, and the 2nd paragraph is the IMA sky learning, that few reach but with diligence and a great teachers (we do need a new definition of what a real teacher does) we can all reach that goal of Higher Learning.

    I take the Higher Learning Ladder (as I claim to understand) that if someone responds that IMA is superior to EMA, that person has no concept and is just doing forms just to do it and has no concept of utility or functionality of his art.
    Just as a parrot repeats stuff, so do the forms champions who are excellent at their task and gymnastic skills.

    adieu, mon fellows I bid thee good day for now!

  4. #109
    Quote Originally Posted by mawali View Post
    I have yet to figure out what "internal" really is, when referencing what people call IMA. Honestly, most people who study what is called internal can be whooped by little old ladies on their way to Sunday church.
    Pardon the hyperbole but most IMA fellows lack the basic 'fighting skills' i.e. basic punching, kicking or running skills. Secondly, because they might be hurt by stuff like boxing, karate or TKD they, they imagine that what is named internal is superior to what is called 'external', not knowing they are the same coin, different side. This is my view and one view only but I do realize that there area few (the few) who are truly skillful in IMA and they regularly compete and share with other arts (external) as part of a learning continuium as opposed to a one stop ending place for their sacred art.

    IMA (the totality of its raison d'etre) (the absolute art) is vastly different from the common IMA that all allegedly embrace so my first point is the common attribute that we are all aware of, and the 2nd paragraph is the IMA sky learning, that few reach but with diligence and a great teachers (we do need a new definition of what a real teacher does) we can all reach that goal of Higher Learning.

    I take the Higher Learning Ladder (as I claim to understand) that if someone responds that IMA is superior to EMA, that person has no concept and is just doing forms just to do it and has no concept of utility or functionality of his art.
    Just as a parrot repeats stuff, so do the forms champions who are excellent at their task and gymnastic skills.

    adieu, mon fellows I bid thee good day for now!
    What makes a MA superior is what a practitioner makes out of it. At the very basic level these styles are about different paths of developing certain skills. IMA styles have their own preference of the skills they want to develop and they tell you how to develop them. Whether a practitioner wants to fully develop them and use them in combat is his choice but I suggest that when we refer to the IMA we refer to the their high level practitioners and judge them not just some old hippies in a park.

  5. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by xinyidizi View Post
    Iif someone wants to learn for example taiji fighting ...
    You have defined a "style boundary" to restrict yourself before you even start your training.
    http://johnswang.com

    More opinion -> more argument
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  6. #111
    Quote Originally Posted by YouKnowWho View Post
    You have defined a "style boundary" to restrict yourself before you even start your training.
    It's not just about the techniques. Taiji teaches specific ways of shenfa, power generation, ... IMO that's the important feature of a style which is like the basic format of how your body moves and it takes a long time to achieve it. I don't think life is long enough to learn the essence of more than two or three distinct arts but this is different from techniques. After internalizing the basic concept, techniques can be added and modified from other arts.

    Also I don't see anything wrong with having a direction or preference in the fighting style one wants to learn. Sometimes limitation is not a bad thing as it makes you work harder on a few things and gives you the opportunity to really learn using them which is better than learning bits and pieces of a thousand different things.
    Last edited by xinyidizi; 05-12-2013 at 05:43 PM.

  7. #112
    Quote Originally Posted by mawali View Post
    I have yet to figure out what "internal" really is, when referencing what people call IMA. Honestly, most people who study what is called internal can be whooped by little old ladies on their way to Sunday church.
    Pardon the hyperbole but most IMA fellows lack the basic 'fighting skills' i.e. basic punching, kicking or running skills. Secondly, because they might be hurt by stuff like boxing, karate or TKD they, they imagine that what is named internal is superior to what is called 'external', not knowing they are the same coin, different side. This is my view and one view only but I do realize that there area few (the few) who are truly skillful in IMA and they regularly compete and share with other arts (external) as part of a learning continuium as opposed to a one stop ending place for their sacred art.

    IMA (the totality of its raison d'etre) (the absolute art) is vastly different from the common IMA that all allegedly embrace so my first point is the common attribute that we are all aware of, and the 2nd paragraph is the IMA sky learning, that few reach but with diligence and a great teachers (we do need a new definition of what a real teacher does) we can all reach that goal of Higher Learning.

    I take the Higher Learning Ladder (as I claim to understand) that if someone responds that IMA is superior to EMA, that person has no concept and is just doing forms just to do it and has no concept of utility or functionality of his art.
    Just as a parrot repeats stuff, so do the forms champions who are excellent at their task and gymnastic skills.

    adieu, mon fellows I bid thee good day for now!
    The path that I have seen that works best, is to learn external first, then learn internal.

    So you learn to hurt people first using external force, then you reach a plateau and then you're ready
    to learn internal.

  8. #113
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    Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't Xinyi start from external training and then become more internal? Id guess xinyidizi could tell me about this, or Dr Yan if he's about.

  9. #114
    Quote Originally Posted by Sima Rong View Post
    Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't Xinyi start from external training and then become more internal? Id guess xinyidizi could tell me about this, or Dr Yan if he's about.
    What definition of "Internal"?

    If you tell me your definition I may be able to answer better but in general I think even Taiji starts from external and becomes more internal gradually. Their difference with waijiaquan is that their external moves were designed to help the practitioners prepare for the internal aspects faster.
    Last edited by xinyidizi; 05-12-2013 at 10:02 PM.

  10. #115
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    Quote Originally Posted by xinyidizi View Post
    What definition of "Internal"?

    If you tell me your definition I may be able to answer better but in general I think even Taiji starts from external and becomes more internal gradually. Their difference with waijiaquan is that their external moves were designed to help the practitioners prepare for the internal aspects faster.
    I think from the idea of using muscular tension and bone and muscle conditioning. That seems to be more external training to me than what I have seen in most people who train Taiji or Bagua anyway. Anyway, nothing is either one or the other I guess.

  11. #116
    Quote Originally Posted by Sima Rong View Post
    I think from the idea of using muscular tension and bone and muscle conditioning. That seems to be more external training to me than what I have seen in most people who train Taiji or Bagua anyway. Anyway, nothing is either one or the other I guess.
    I don't know much about bagua but comparing to Taichi yes it starts harder at the beginning. In the Shanghai branch usually the first few weeks or months (depending on the speed the teacher wants to teach) is spent on just practicing chicken step and dragon swinging the shoulders to build a solid foundation for all the other moves. After that the teacher gradually adds both hard moves and soft moves. It takes longer to learn and see the result of the soft moves in the training which is probably why you think Xinyi starts more external.

  12. #117
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    Quote Originally Posted by xinyidizi View Post
    the teacher gradually adds both hard moves and soft moves.
    Both hard moves and soft moves have it's usage. When

    - your opponent uses haymaker to knock on your head, your soft block may let his haymaker to hit your blocking arm and still hit your head. Hard block will be better to use in this situation.

    - you parry your opponent's leading arm, he borrows your force and spins into a haymaker, you then borrow his arm spinning and achieve your arm wrapping. This kind of borrow force, re-borrow force is soft move.

    There is no "internal" way or "external" way but "right" way and "wrong" way. As long as you do the "right" thing at the right moment, that's all it counts.
    Last edited by YouKnowWho; 05-13-2013 at 01:44 PM.
    http://johnswang.com

    More opinion -> more argument
    Less opinion -> less argument
    No opinion -> no argument

  13. #118
    Quote Originally Posted by YouKnowWho View Post
    Both hard moves and soft moves have it's usage. When

    - your opponent uses haymaker to knock on your head, your soft block may let his haymaker to hit your blocking arm and still hit your head. Hard block will be better to use in this situation.

    - you parry your opponent's leading arm, he borrows your force and spins into a haymaker, you then borrow his arm spinning and achieve your arm wrapping. This kind of borrow force, re-borrow force is soft move.

    There is no "internal" way or "external" way but "right" way and "wrong" way. As long as you do the "right" thing at the right moment, that's all it counts.
    There are many ways to do everything, but depending on what you have to work with, your options might be limited.

  14. #119
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    I think that's what Youknowwho just said. You don't throw eggs against rocks, or thrash wildly when in quicksand.

  15. #120
    Quote Originally Posted by Sima Rong View Post
    I think that's what Youknowwho just said. You don't throw eggs against rocks, or thrash wildly when in quicksand.

    I don't think that is what he meant, there are many ways to do things, if you only think there is one way, you might not know much.

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