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Thread: Why you don't understand "Internal" yet..

  1. #1
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    Why you don't understand "Internal" yet..

    NOTICE: It may not need saying - but this is all from my experience, not necessarily fact and certainly not the ultimate word.

    Why don't you understand what "Internal" means yet?


    It's because you don't understand what Chinese term is referencing. If someone said Internal - ask them to clarify.

    For instance - in this very forum the section is called "Nei Jia" and references "The Internal Martial Arts".

    ________________________________________________
    First, we need to look at the terms we are so often [mis]using!

    Nei Jia (内家)is understood as both a geographic and family-transmission related term. Wai Jia (外家 ) means outer family. These are often translated simply as "Internal."

    Better translated - they are "Inner/Within Family" and "Outer/Outside Family".


    ________________________________________________
    Okay- but then what does internal practice mean?

    Internal Practice/Skill in Chinese is called Nei Gong (内功). While it has varying functional definitions - it is the term most are referring to when they say that an art needs the "Internal" component. In very vague and general terms these are often practices that place higher emphasis on postural/structural, breathing, and mind coordinations.

    External Practice/Skill in Chinese is called Wai Gong (外功). Generally this refers to practices that place the most emphasis on the physical movements. E.g. ) "Do This", Now Step and Punch, Now Back up and Block, etc.

    ________________________________________________

    Okay, so what is it!.

    It exists as practice methods - the reason you may not think it exists is because you have not been exposed to any "Nei Gong" practice methods. Now that you know the terminology - you can start your own google search for Nei Gong, or the chinese terms 内功。

    Another reason you may not believe is that there are semi-inconsistent definitions of it. It is a general term for Practice methods that are commonly associated with healing arts in chinese and is not specific to one or two methods.


    ________________________________________________
    What's the difference then between internal and external?

    In my experience:
    Most practices are not mutually exclusive (purely external or internal), but there are good definable examples depending on who you ask and what level is being taught at.

    Internal Practices often include very detailed breathing mechanics (that include physical elaborations on how to breath - speed, rate, sensations that assist), mental elaborations (that may include specific actions, parts of the body, or abstractions to focus on, or other), and after those are understood - sometimes a coordination of those combined with a physical elaboration (may be detailed postural work, structure refinement for tension reduction, static and dynamic postures, transitions, or other).

    In some schools of Tai Chi, the Nei Gong is taught as a light contraction in specific parts of the abdomen during certain postural transitions and postures.

    In the Shaolin ChanWuYi school, there are a wide variety of practices called Nei Yang Gong (内养功)- which means Internal Building Exercises. Similarly, there are Internal practice principles/guidelines (or Lian Fa 练法)that assist in incorporating these internal practices into every day movements - including coordinating specific mental coordination, breathing, and postural adjustments that can vary. (You can learn some basic ones on Chinese youtube directly from Shi De Jian's disciple Chan Sui Yin who teaches out of Hong Kong and has a youtube channel)

    These are also related to the "Ba 把" from the shaolin phrase "Practicing Martial Arts without practicing "ba" is akin to swinging wildly (literally, recklessly hitting). It's preferred to teach 10 styles of fighting than teach a single "Ba" [implication that it is due to the responsibility of understanding something as powerful as such a "Ba"].
    ”练拳不练把 等于瞎胡打, 宁教十趟拳 不教一个把“

    There are many forms of laying, seated, standing, and postural nei gongs as well and many styles have their own incorporated practices that are often not taught to beginner students for some reason. I believe there are even books in english available on Nei Gong - although I cannot attest to their quality.

    ________________________________________________
    So why can't people explain why these Internal Practices are referred to as so great?

    At a certain level, these practices cannot be described in words. Some arts have ways to check them (such as in Tai Chi there are pushing hands/sensitivity methods to test postural alignment), some depend on body feedback from various feelings, and may even be quantifiable if you could isolate the exercises (nei gong) to measurable things such as frequency/size of your poop, blood pressure levels, and more - all the way up to less quantifiable things such as subjective mood levels, abilities at work, sleep quality, etc.

    Since the basics lay a path/foundation - the higher levels generally cannot be explained and are something that must be gained through experience on the path. The best way I could think to explain is that the Buddha attained enlightenment. He could not give you enlightenment even if he showed up in front of you - it is a path you must walk.

    You could say the same of external skill though - that the body simply needs to be adjusted to it and over time through practice will be better.

    ________________________________________________
    So where's the magic?

    Don't know - I think people practicing looking for magic powers may end up disappointed. People looking to improve their health and general life abilities may be surprised if they can find a good teacher.

    The magic IME is that most Nei Gong I have seen serves to relax, and naturally allow elongation and release of the Spinal tissue (Spinal Fascia tissue? I'm not an anatomy expert) while facilitating better blood/oxygen flow to the central "Dan Tian" region of the body.

    Those improves comfort in lower back, reduces pressure along spine, and serves to assist in realignment/weight distribution through the pelvis. Those, IME, are the very foundational level benefits and the secondary, tertiary, etc. benefits are the "prime" reason for many people's practice - re: spiritual understanding

    Summary "TL; DR"

    NeiJia / Nei Jia Quan is not what most people mean when they are talking about "Internal" skills of someone.

    They are talking about Nei Gong - which means "Internal Practice/Skill" and has practice methods that exist and can be easily found online or from a legitimate teacher now that you know what term you are searching for.
    Last edited by Matthew; 04-25-2013 at 02:51 PM.

  2. #2
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    I equate "internal" to Bigfoot. All these people with cameras have never caught an actual vid or photo of him/her yet some swear he/she exists. it's about the same.
    Originally posted by Bawang
    i had an old taichi lady talk smack behind my back. i mean comon man, come on. if it was 200 years ago,, mebbe i wouldve smacked her and took all her monehs.
    Originally posted by Bawang
    i am manly and strong. do not insult me cracker.

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by Dragonzbane76 View Post
    I equate "internal" to Bigfoot. All these people with cameras have never caught an actual vid or photo of him/her yet some swear he/she exists. it's about the same.
    Is it really that hard to search for videos of XYLH, Taiji, Bagua, Xingyi,... ? Do you expect the internal guys to fly and throw energy balls? Internal(neijia) is just the name of a category in TCMA that emphasizes on more refined body mechanics as in spiral movements, 含胸塌腰(or 拔背)the unity of the body in motion, .... There are many similarities between the internal arts and the external arts but most people who have trained them both agree that arts like taiji,xinyi and bagua share more similarities regarding what I mentioned above and can be categorized in the same group.
    Before some bodyguards and soldiers used to train them for killing their opponents and now that there is no need for that type of violence, parts of their training methods are are still practiced by hobbyists for different reasons mainly for enjoying the body connectivity and other health benefits that these practice methods can give them. There are also some people in these arts who do some combat training and have shown reasonable skills in sanshou competitions which you can also find on the internet.

  4. #4
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    Dear Mathew,
    Thanks for your insights on this.

    What do you think of the Sam Tam video on the other thread?

  5. #5
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    Do you expect the internal guys to fly and throw energy balls?
    i'm sure not all believe that but I'm sure there is a high percentage out there that do.

    There are many similarities between the internal arts and the external arts
    that's because they are the same. You cannot have one without the other.
    Last edited by Dragonzbane76; 04-25-2013 at 07:02 AM.
    Originally posted by Bawang
    i had an old taichi lady talk smack behind my back. i mean comon man, come on. if it was 200 years ago,, mebbe i wouldve smacked her and took all her monehs.
    Originally posted by Bawang
    i am manly and strong. do not insult me cracker.

  6. #6
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    I typically don't bother with convoluted and complicated explanations of what are often natural processes.

    It brings results or it doesn't.
    Kung Fu is good for you.

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    Quote Originally Posted by David Jamieson View Post
    I typically don't bother with convoluted and complicated explanations of what are often natural processes.

    It brings results or it doesn't.
    I dunno - I quite like theoretical stuff sometimes. Sometimes I read things and it 'clicks' and gives me an insight that I find really helpful. And sometimes it's good just to hear how other people view things.

    However, I do agree on the importance of results - but the reality is, even the results will be argued over. One man's video proof of internal martial arts is another man's total fraud. All of us have a bit of 'belief' about our abilities - it's natural. And it's good, because a lack of self confidence can be self fulfilling. I sometimes think - an empty force demo is not all that different in terms of 'belief' to me thinking that 'if I was attacked in the street (again) I'd do this this and this....' We all have our theories.

  8. #8
    Neijia and Waijia are similar but not the same. Personally I feel the difference in training them quite clearly so for theoreticians I think it's reasonable to categorize them into different groups no matter what they should be called. However these internal/external theories don't really have much practical values. I have noticed that in Nanyang, Zhoukou, Chenjiagou no one cares what is internal or external as well as other flowery theories unless they want to milk rich foreigners or waidiren(the Chinese from outside of Henan).
    Last edited by xinyidizi; 04-25-2013 at 07:02 AM.

  9. #9
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    The results of good training:

    - Good or Great structure of the body. Alignment that produces position of power
    - Clarity of mind, ability to do what needs to be done when it needs to be done
    - Physical strength and growth of it
    - Physical endurance and stamina and the growth of it
    - Physical grace and growth of it
    - Fortitude - the ability to recover quickly from harsh assault and to answer it

    This is results to me.

    When students enter, they usually have little in the way of any of these. If you see these developing, they are the results of the training they receive. If they are not developing these, there is something missing or they are not following the prescribed actions to be carried out.
    Kung Fu is good for you.

  10. #10
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    An interesting article on "internal" vs "external" at Kung Fu Tea blog.

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    We can't talk about "internal vs, external" without talking about the linkage between "internal and external". No matter how long that you have trained your Chi Gong, and no matter how long that you have punched on your heavy bag, if your can't use your breathing to coordinate with your punch/kick, your "internal" still cannot be able to apply to the combat.
    http://johnswang.com

    More opinion -> more argument
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  12. #12
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    like I said they are the same. you cannot have one without the other. Giving it a "pretty" name doesn't change that.
    Originally posted by Bawang
    i had an old taichi lady talk smack behind my back. i mean comon man, come on. if it was 200 years ago,, mebbe i wouldve smacked her and took all her monehs.
    Originally posted by Bawang
    i am manly and strong. do not insult me cracker.

  13. #13
    1 Ba or Shi or ba shi

    understanding and practice one posture well is more important

    = to master one posture well is more important

    = quality is better than quantity

    ba= shi = ba shi = posture

    2 gong fa = lian fa

    how to practice or drill the moves the right way

    --


  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by xinyidizi View Post
    Internal(neijia) is just the name of a category in TCMA
    Hi xinyidizi,

    I wasn't explicit enough in my post on this point (I will add a summary to the post).

    The term NeiJia is not "Internal" term that most are using from what I can tell.

    It is NeiGong/WaiGong.

    That is - "Internal Skill/Practice" and includes a wide range of specific practice methods among various styles and practices in China (martial arts, to healing, to buddhist/taoist practices, etc.)

    More important to note is that many different arts contain some sort of Nei Gong that have different titles. In Shaolin ChanWuYi - the term NeiYangGong is a widearching term for various health giving NeiGongs. There are simple breathing neigongs, moving, seated, laying etc.

    In one XinYi branch I saw they use the term "DanTianGong" for something similar as well,

    so terminology may vary... but NeiGong, being a different term from NeiJia, does refer to actual practice methods.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Matthew View Post
    It is NeiGong/WaiGong.
    Since NeiGong may have nothing to do with combat, why do we want to use "NeiGong" to define "internal"?
    http://johnswang.com

    More opinion -> more argument
    Less opinion -> less argument
    No opinion -> no argument

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