Why you don't understand "Internal" yet..

[YouKnowWho]

I don't know about that but as far as dong gong goes, I have seen many XYLH practitioners aging between 80~104 and most of them can still move and even fight well.

Old Chinese saying said, "If you train Tan Tui 10 times daily, water (cold) and fire (heat) won't be able to bother you any more. If you train Tan Tui 20 times daily, you should be able to reach immortality."

As long as you can keep yourself "Dong", you should be able to live through your old age. We can't use "internal" as execuse for "not moving".

[xinyidizi]

No doubt that moving is better but l wouldn't say that jinggong doesn't have any benefits. Usually in both XYLH and Chen there is very little emphasis on standing postures but in my own experience standing can teach you sinking into the kua and pengjin(or 撑劲）much faster than doing the form and after learning that we can start moving without losing that feeling. That's why for a period of time I tried it and got good results. Now I don't spend much time on standing as I think at this point moving is more important in my training. So IMHO what is good or bad really depends on different circumstances and things that are important at some point might not be as important at another time.

[xinyidizi]

modern training that relies on steroid abuse is bad for your body. internal coward trainnig is bad for your spirit.

modern "sports science" is yang corruption. internal "cultivation" is yin corruption.

I agree TCMA is dominated by cowards now.

[YouKnowWho]

No doubt that moving is better but l wouldn't say that jinggong doesn't have any benefits. Usually in both XYLH and Chen there is very little emphasis on standing postures but in my own experience standing can teach you sinking into the kua and penguin(or 撑劲）much faster than doing the form and after learning that we can start moving without losing that feeling. That's why for a period of time I tried it and got good results. Now I don't spend much time on standing as I think at this point moving is more important in my training. So IMHO what is good or bad really depends on different circumstances and things that are important at some point might not be as important at another time.

I do posture training all the time. It can "enhance" my combat skill but it's not combat skill by itself.
http://imageshack.us/a/img408/8945/13taibu.jpg

When people spend most of their time in posture training, they just got their priority wrong. To be able to knock/throw your opponent down ASAP should be the highest priority in TCMA training.

[Matthew]

I'm sure the Chinese government would get all the Neigon instructors in China inorder to help them to obtain more Olympic gold metals. If they don't take that path, what does that tell us?

They're using Tai Chi for this to some extent. I remember seeing some short documentary that included one of their female TKD olympians who said her biggest secret was Tai Chi precisely.

Although I don't know the quality or depth of instruction - and I certainly don't know what Nei Gong / internal principles are taught by various tai chi teachers - and I'm not equating general "Tai Chi" with "Nei Gong" although some Nei Gong principles may be taught passively or directly through Tai Chi teachers.

[Matthew]

There is no prove that people who trains "static" Neigon can be more healthy.

http://img805.imageshack.us/img805/6...meditation.jpg

When you move a

- tree, that tree will die.
- person, that person will live longer.

Neigong, IME, is really just a foundation that external movements are built upon - so it seems you are implying NeiGong = Static training only - which I think is wrong.

NeiGong and Zhuang Gong (stance training) are not the same, although Nei Gong can support Zhuang Gong.

[Matthew]

internal "cultivation" is yin corruption.

in a society where most people have yang exercise (moving houses, gardening work, lifting weights, running, physical labor, house renovation, chores, and other daily requirements etc etc.).. adding internal cultivation brings a balance, not a corruption.

Further most Nei Gong serves as a base for external - to address both the inside and outside.

Even more so today where people suffer mental disorders - and high levels of relative stress, mental exhaustion, etc. - internal cultivation can help address "depleted yin energy"

[xinyidizi]

in a society where most people have yang exercise (moving houses, gardening work, lifting weights, running, physical labor, house renovation, chores, and other daily requirements etc etc.).. adding internal cultivation brings a balance, not a corruption.

Further most Nei Gong serves as a base for external - to address both the inside and outside.

Even more so today where people suffer mental disorders - and high levels of relative stress, mental exhaustion, etc. - internal cultivation can help address "depleted yin energy"

I think it's about overdoing that in martial arts. It's fine if someone says that he only teaches yangsheng but in most cases they brag about how awesome they are in fighting and mislead their students. After a few years of forms and a huge amount of money many of their students haven't even done simple push hands let alone combat. Finding a TCMA class that actually trains fighting as they are supposed to is getting harder and harder these days. Even the teachers who know how to fight seem to prefer making easy money by just teaching forms and spiritual stuff to rich people.

[bawang]

in a society where most people have yang exercise (moving houses, gardening work, lifting weights, running, physical labor, house renovation, chores, and other daily requirements etc etc.).. adding internal cultivation brings a balance, not a corruption.

when you meditate for health, its great. when you do it to gain esoteric powers, its corruption.

Even more so today where people suffer mental disorders - and high levels of relative stress, mental exhaustion, etc. - internal cultivation can help address "depleted yin energy"

internal cultivation is great. you just cant fight with it.


you are living in self denial. you say your internal is not magic. but deep inside you know its magic of the purest form, its all the magic you ever dreamed of, all the power you ever lusted ever after. you have defeated people who have beaten and humiliated you by the power of your imagination.

[YouKnowWho]

Do people know that the ending move of the Yang Taiji form 合太极(He Taiji) is Neigon by itself. It can be used to accumulate Qi to your Dantian. A friend of mine had a workshop and charger $75 just to train that move.

[YouKnowWho]

Neigong, IME, is really just a foundation that external movements are built upon - so it seems you are implying NeiGong = Static training only - which I think is wrong.

NeiGong and Zhuang Gong (stance training) are not the same, although Nei Gong can support Zhuang Gong.

Many TCMA systems develop from outside in instead of inside out. Systems such as XingYi, SC, ... When you generate power, your body should be functioned as a "balloon".

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古传形意拳歌诀中，说可以通过发声来长功夫，名为「虎豹雷音」..........
In ancient xingyi Quan, it was said that one can use voice to enhance Kung Fu Known as "Hu Bao Lei Yin" ... ... ....

尚云祥解释，练拳练到一定程度，骨骼筋肉都已爽利坚实，此时功夫要向身内走，就是要沁进五脏六腑。但这一步 很难，就要用发声来接引一下，声音由内向外，劲力由外向内，里应外合一下，功夫方能成就。

Shang Yunxiang interpretation, when you have trained your XingYi to a certain degree, your bone, muscle are already strong. Now you will need to develop your Kung Fu outside in and to make your internal organs strong too. This step is very difficult. You will need to use your voice to connect it. Your voice come from inside out. Your power come from outside in. Your Kung Fu will then be completed.
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Actually the "虎豹雷音(Hu Bao Lei Yin) - tiger leopard and thunder sound" used in the XinYi system is not this loud. It should be similiar to cat or dog breathing sound. It can be used to connect between "internal" and "external".

Here is an example how people use "虎豹雷音(Hu Bao Lei Yin) - tiger leopard and thunder sound" to connect "internal Qi" and "external force".

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2kNadlBi7EE

[Matthew]

when you meditate for health, its great.

I agree - meditating for health can be great - which is probably why so many MMA schools and athletes are taking up meditation. It can improve mental faculties, and physical health - which can contribute to improvement in other areas in life that people focus on.

internal cultivation is great. you just cant fight with it.

This is really where every thread that involves mention of Nei Gong sadly goes to.

xinyidizi already laid it out well - that the issue is actually in teachers making false claims about what they're selling.

Fighting is pretty simply just throw your arms around. Some boxers spend their whole life training 4 punches and they can fight better than we ever will.

[Matthew]

Many TCMA systems develop from outside in instead of inside out. Systems such as XingYi, SC,

Good - but I don't know why this is relative to a thread specifically aimed at assisting non-chinese speakers in understanding the definition of mistranslated terms Nei Gong/Nei Jia.

In ancient xingyi Quan

We could also mention -
XinYi (not XingYi) has lineages currently-to-this-day preserving material from before divergence with "modern XingYi"

Some of those start with Standing stake, internal nei gongs, and internal practices.

But this is historical detail and would be better suited for a new thread of its own topic - wouldn't it? I would participate in such a thread if you want to start it

[Matthew]

I think it's about overdoing that in martial arts. It's fine if someone says that he only teaches yangsheng but in most cases they brag about how awesome they are in fighting and mislead their students.

I agree - and I think people making outrageous claims may be the issue more-so than people merely teaching YangSheng/Health Giving practices.

It is very hard to find a good teacher of most anything. Students also have the responsibility IMO of harboring some doubts about their teachers.

A saying goes: "Never fully believe, nor fully doubt your teacher. Either one will bring about shallow understanding."

After a few years of forms and a huge amount of money many of their students haven't even done simple push hands let alone combat. Finding a TCMA class that actually trains fighting as they are supposed to is getting harder and harder these days. Even the teachers who know how to fight seem to prefer making easy money by just teaching forms and spiritual stuff to rich people.

Thanks - I think this is well put.

I think the fact that people on this forum are aware of this concern itself is a cause for turn-around in the future.

Most threads I read end up with people fed up that there "is no real TCMA left"..

..but at the same time they are throwing out the baby with the bath water by ignoring Nei Gong and health giving methods that are an integral part of TCMA.


That's why I started this thread.

Hoping to quell so many wasted posts/threads by people who don't speak enough Chinese to know that Nei Gong doesn't always mean Magic Daoist Immortality Flying Fireballs.

[bawang]

Fighting is pretty simply just throw your arms around. Some boxers spend their whole life training 4 punches and they can fight better than we ever will.

and yet you wrote a 500 word essay on internal. this is why you fail. not only as a martial artist, but as a human being.