Why you don't understand "Internal" yet..

[Matthew]

The "internal" system cares more about health than the "external" system does.

I agree that Internal practice nourishes health more directly - but I really disagree that they are entirely seperate.

I have seen many "purely" nei gong exercises, but they are usually foundational, not intended to be an entire system,

most I have been exposed to beyond those foundational exercises all include external components and are not so mutually exclusive as many make it sound.

How can you kill someone by punching out "soft".

If you wanted to kill someone, a fist is probably not the best way to do it.

IME - punching with tension, from an isolated shoulder, with a full extended arm, etc. all are like driving with the breaks on.

[Matthew]

I want to post more resources so people can get a better educated idea on what people mean when they say "Internal." That is - it is not "moving slowly with coordinated breath" but far more wholly encompassing.

Note - I'm not posting these various different traditions, teachers, styles, etc for people to learn from - as many have different practice methods that may contradict each other.

I'm only posting for reference so people know it doesn't mean throwing fireballs and is actually something practical and beneficial to practice.
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Here is another branch of Xin Yi other than Shaolin ChanWuYi that practices very similar Nei Yang Gong. Sorry not in english, but still of interest.

They call it Dan Tian Gong - which is a general term Master De Jian himself uses sometimes:

Skip to 5 Minutes: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u2jnB6K0qCw

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Here is a Wu/Yang style Tai Chi teacher describing their lineages "Nei Gong" (they call it internal discipline in english):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mIcstWYHW5w - Solo Video of him alone

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AfjFIXyZ5TQ -Video of him teaching others

http://www.classicaltaichi.com/internal-discipline.html - His Page

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Here is Bruce Frantzis (tai chi/bagua/xingyi teacher) describing his Nei Gong practices in english:
http://taiji-europa.eu/tai-chi-taiji...umar-frantzis/ -Interview

Without the application of real Neigong principles you will find that your Taiji will have barriers at each point and without Neigong you won’t go past them.

Then the question becomes, “Can I learn the movements of a Taiji form and not really be doing Taiji but make it work for fighting?” Sure you can, because Taiji comes out of Shaolin and as long as you are able to move in such a way, to parry a punch and make them go down, you’ll be fine. By the same token, a good street fighter can make up his own Taiji form, in the pub when he’s drunk, as long as he can slam the guy in the head and knock him out, then he’s got an effective martial art. .....

if you’re talking about the original creation of the art then there’s no way of being effective in fighting without the Neigong. It’s like trying to buy a plane ticket without money; it’s not going to work.

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Our resident forum poster Sal Canzonieri,

has his own programs that include Neigong:

Where he categorizes Nei Gong as relating to "Self Transformation" and "Integrated Body/Mind" benefits.

http://www.jindaolife.com/JindaoProgram.htm
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Others please contribute too!

Unfortunately, I don't think people will be able to glimpse the mind-teachings of it without a good teacher first hand, so I realize much of this postings will not accomplish that goal.

Instead I am aiming to exposing fellow "westerners" (who may have little exposure to this type of material judging by many of these forum threads) to the pragmatic methods that Nei Gong provides for Martial Arts, Health, and beyond.

[mawali]

Neigong (among other descriptives) was never a single pattern of teaching or instruction. The concept was the same but every group had their own 'neigong' method. As a matter of fact, prior to the naming of qigong per today, many systems were called neigong, neiyanggong, yangshenggong, etc. so if the principle and concept was there. nothing else was needed.

Even today when many 'modern' teachers do their stuff, they often leave out the neigong parts of training. As you can see, even when people teach taijiquan, they just teach the form and that is the tai chi we often see!

[Miqi]

Unfortunately, I don't think people will be able to glimpse the mind-teachings of it without a good teacher first hand, so I realize much of this postings will not accomplish that goal.

Instead I am aiming to exposing fellow "westerners" (who may have little exposure to this type of material judging by many of these forum threads) to the pragmatic methods that Nei Gong provides for Martial Arts, Health, and beyond.

Hi Mathew,
given that the videos you show are 'nei gong' - what then is the next step in terms of developing practical skill, and do these people show the next step? Or, do we have videos of the next step? And also, videos of the final product?

Also, do you have videos of you practicing?

[Matthew]

Hi Mathew,
given that the videos you show are 'nei gong' - what then is the next step in terms of developing practical skill, and do these people show the next step?

IMO, it depends on what overarching goals you are practicing for.

It sounds that you may have more pointed questions that you are curious about (if I only can judge from this post) - feel free to PM me, I love to talk about these.

If sharing with you my own personal path would help - I would be happy to share, but I don't think it would contribute to this thread, so PM or on my wall if you want.

Or, do we have videos of the next step?

This really depends on what your foundation is. Generally internal Nei Gong practice starts very foundationally with Zhan Zhuang (standing stake) in extremely low-strain posture, are aimed at developing sensitivity to the breathing, elongating postural muscles, bringing blood, oxygen (and Qi if you believe it) to the "dan tian" or core of your body, which opens up the pelvis, connects legs and mis-section, improves digestion, - and further can serve to allow reflection and elimination of discursive thoughts - to purify your conscious mind over time. From there, breathing, mind practice methods, and others usually vary from school to school depending on the goal.

From there - different schools add in different components. Some use intent and move their intent around, some are "Natural" schools that don't worry about that - some go right into static postures and some move through dynamic ones.

I think videos cannot get a very strong fundamental practice of Nei Gong/Internal Arts from purely video- only because there are too many details that are easily missed or practiced incorrectly.

IMO, even if you could articulate those details in video - you would still have too many detailed questions you need to ask.

Not to mention any postural details that need to be checked or ensured by a teacher (or even emotional/mental details if you have that type of student-teacher relationship).

And also, videos of the final product?

We first have to know what we aim to achieve - what is the "final product" you are looking for - and how your life-constraints reasonably allow you to achieve that goal - right?

Also, do you have videos of you practicing?

Some - but I don't believe they'd be of any benefit to anyone other than my own practice and reflection.

I'd meet people in person, but I don't think I'd send videos of myself to anyone I didn't have a relatively trusting or personal relationship with.

[YouKnowWho]

IMO, it depends on what overarching goals you are practicing for.

The goal is simple - "combat".

what then is the next step ... the final product?

This is my concern too. In the Taiji system, where is the step beyond "push hands"? Had any Taiji master ever defined that?

[Miqi]

IMO, it depends on what overarching goals you are practicing for.

It sounds that you may have more pointed questions that you are curious about (if I only can judge from this post) - feel free to PM me, I love to talk about these.

Hi Mathew,
Here I'm just going off what you said about explaining the use of neigong for combat and other practices.

Let's take it as a given that slow movement has at least some form of health benefits and ask what the next steps are in terms of general practical application.

For example, I also use zhan zhuang and slow movement - I don't 'not' believe in 'qi' but I don't use the concept as part of my training, nor do I use any kind of breathing training (breathing should be natural in yiquan) - I'm just trying to develop finer motor control and relaxed, whole body power. When I punch slowly, my punch movement has the same structure and movement as when I hit the bag - because there is a functional progression from one to the other in the theory of what I do. I assume this is the same for what you're explaining. But...
I don't inderstand the videos where people are touched lightly and fly off - so I wonder if there is any videos of people hitting a bag form the nei gong lines you recommend.

If sharing with you my own personal path would help - I would be happy to share, but I don't think it would contribute to this thread, so PM or on my wall if you want.

I won't press you to show your level - we're all amateurs and not claiming anything out of the ordinary. But I think it helps everyone if we can see other people's level - at least, as far as we can understand what they show. I'm just interested really.

This really depends on what your foundation is. Generally internal Nei Gong practice starts very foundationally with Zhan Zhuang (standing stake) in extremely low-strain posture, are aimed at developing sensitivity to the breathing, elongating postural muscles, bringing blood, oxygen (and Qi if you believe it) to the "dan tian" or core of your body, which opens up the pelvis, connects legs and mis-section, improves digestion, - and further can serve to allow reflection and elimination of discursive thoughts - to purify your conscious mind over time. From there, breathing, mind practice methods, and others usually vary from school to school depending on the goal.



From there - different schools add in different components. Some use intent and move their intent around, some are "Natural" schools that don't worry about that - some go right into static postures and some move through dynamic ones.

Well that sounds very much like parts of the training that I do as well.

I think videos cannot get a very strong fundamental practice of Nei Gong/Internal Arts from purely video- only because there are too many details that are easily missed or practiced incorrectly.

IMO, even if you could articulate those details in video - you would still have too many detailed questions you need to ask.

Not to mention any postural details that need to be checked or ensured by a teacher (or even emotional/mental details if you have that type of student-teacher relationship).

Yes I'm sure that this is true. I just wonder what other people do after this level - i.e. this is a given common set of exercises, but where do other people take it? What is a good application video from your perspective? (Let's face it - this is all we have over the net!)

Some - but I don't believe they'd be of any benefit to anyone other than my own practice and reflection.

I'd meet people in person, but I don't think I'd send videos of myself to anyone I didn't have a relatively trusting or personal relationship with.

That's fine, of course - no one who claims little owes anyone a demo - but any chance of illustrating the concepts with videos of the next, more fight oriented levels that proceed from this?

Best,
Miqi

[YouKnowWho]

I wonder if there is any videos of people hitting a bag form the nei gong lines you recommend ... but any chance of illustrating the concepts with videos of the next, more fight oriented levels that proceed from this?

In another internal forum, some people talked about "internal" this and "internal" that. I had asked those "internal" experts to provide video clip proof (such as by using nei gong to hit on a heavy bag), I have waited for those kind of clips for the past 15 years. Those clips still haven't come out yet. What's the chance that you think you may get those clips today?

I want to see at least one clip that someone uses "internal" to hit on a heavy bag and prove that he can hit that heavy bag harder than I can. Is that too much to ask for?

[Robinhood]

In another internal forum, some people talked about "internal" this and "internal" that. I had asked those "internal" experts to provide video clip proof (such as by using nei gong to hit on a heavy bag), I have waited for those kind of clips for the past 15 years. Those clips still haven't come out yet. What's the chance that you think you may get those clips today?

I want to see at least one clip that someone uses "internal" to hit on a heavy bag and prove that he can hit that heavy bag harder than I can. Is that too much to ask for?

I don't thinkl anyone claims they can hit a heavy bag harder with internal, look toward internal being more efficient and accurate, and takes less time and effort to execute techniques. It more along the lines of focused lines of force or energy , its not about wasting energy muscling inanimate objects , but interacting with alive objects.

[Matthew]

Hi Mathew

Hi Miqi

I'm just trying to develop finer motor control and relaxed, whole body power. When I punch slowly, my punch movement has the same structure and movement as when I hit the bag - because there is a functional progression from one to the other in the theory of what I do. I assume this is the same for what you're explaining.

Sounds the same from my experience.

I think very important is the "relaxed" aspect you mentioned. I spent my first couple years in a harder southern style, where my shigong (teacher's teacher) was of the attitude that you "Punch until your arm is too tired to stay up/you are too tired to punch hard. Then your punches will have real power"

Basically the idea was - once you wear out the "breaks" on the car- then you won't be driving with the breaks on. Internal arts, from what I've seen, simply start at the other end of the spectrum and recognize that power comes from relaxation of the structure. That doesn't mean you have to move slow, necessarily, but that you should only move as fast as you are coordinated.

But... I don't inderstand the videos where people are touched lightly and fly off - so I wonder if there is any videos of people hitting a bag form the nei gong lines you recommend.

I think the question itself rests on the assumption that "Internal Nei Gong" power is in it's own mutually exclusive category - which I don't think it is.

Typically people who go around making supernatural claims and showing them off would be scammers.

If such supernatural powers really existed - why wouldn't they using them to heal people and do good deeds with those supernatural powers?

-----------------------------------------

I think a video here shows a fairly high accomplished level of Internal control and skill:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yzdy07nvD9g

I agree with Robinhood in that - one of the major focuses of having some internal practice is in learning principles of expending the least amount of physical and mental effort and being efficient in movement.

More importantly, people like Muhammad Ali, or my first external TCMA teacher - had some good internal power and efficiency in movement that took them a LOT of years to learn - and included some natural talent as well.

Nei Gong, IME, equals out that playing field by teaching anyone how to use their body more efficiently in a relaxed manner from the start - and with a more formulaic approach instead of spending years "wearing out the breaks"

I won't press you to show your level - we're all amateurs and not claiming anything out of the ordinary. But I think it helps everyone if we can see other people's level - at least, as far as we can understand what they show. I'm just interested really.

I'm quite a beginner really. If at all I have small attainment. A good amount of my post here is theory - I'll make sure and mention each time I am talking theoretically - that way you can ignore it if you feel it is not pragmatic enough.

IMO, If you want to be a great fighter and learn how to apply your internal efficiency, then just fight - and get advice from your teacher. It's really pretty simple.
------------------------------------------

My point is - Nei Gong has formulated ways to give results of efficiency, relaxation, and can set the foundation for clarity of conscious mind.

From there, depending on the path you take and how you train - perhaps some clarity of the conscious mind could lead to clarity of the subconscious habitual mind.

I could even go as far to say you'd better do good deeds and things that help other people, not hurt other people. Then you will really be cleaning your conscious mind. Through repitition of good deeds and clarity of conscious mind, we might be able to clean some dust off the subconscious mind and then we really might have a little internal benefit to speak of.

This is really just cheap talk though from me - just my perspective on how the Buddha's teachings are at the center of it. All theory really unless you practice it and test it for yourself.

I just wonder what other people do after this level

Some people naturally have abundant energy and relaxed posture and can readily apply it without practicing any sort of Nei Gong, some develop good internal efficiency/power through years of external work.

The issue is that those people won't be able to pass on the understanding of internal ability, because they only developed it through year and years of "driving with the breaks on" until their breaks wore out one day.

If the methods are developed (And they have been for 100s-1000s of years), then they can be practiced and tested and formulated - instead of a guessing game.

Perhaps they can be used for purposes beyond healing our own postural issues, maybe our own emotional issues and habitual selfish behaviors - being a beginner- I can't say for sure if it works though.

My teacher says such practices can even teach us enough to help and heal others - but this is just theory and I haven't attained any such levels personally - so take it as it is.

Yes I'm sure that this is true. I just wonder what other people do after this level - i.e. this is a given common set of exercises, but where do other people take it?

Personally - I like to take it to work with me, so if I sit for hours I can practice to assist in loosening up cramping around my pelvis and spinal fascia. I practice natural breathing, natural observed Dan Tian breathing, and "Active" Dan Tian breathing.

What is a good application video from your perspective? (Let's face it - this is all we have over the net!)

If you want to watch fighting, Muhammad Ali gives a good level of efficiency in bodily movement.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yzdy07nvD9g

IMO, a good application video could be anything. If your skill is high, the application video could be of you raking your garden, or doing dishes - could be of you painting your deck or sanding your floor.

A mind without discursive thinking in all of these things will contribute to that conscious clarity that can wash the unconscious bit by bit - but this is really just more of cheap theory I am interpreting from Buddhism admittedly.

That's fine, of course - no one who claims little owes anyone a demo - but any chance of illustrating the concepts with videos of the next, more fight oriented levels that proceed from this?

Here are some monks sparring around with a young guy who likes to spar. I doubt they get a lot of exposure to sparring around with other stylists, or other fighters, as their focus is on the Buddhas teachings, and not necessarily on sparring.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=prJ21...utu.be&t=39m7s

As to from me - I wouldn't make such videos as my skill is quite low and my focus isn't fighting. If you wanted to be a great fighter though - why not just tell your teacher you want to focus on it. Then learn from him - and if you want to hang out with other stylists, you can test out there to, and elsewhere?

If my own beliefs aren't clear - it is that internal is a component of training, an important component. In fighting, it is needed to ensure there is little to no recovery time from mis-step, or unexpected stepping of the other person. It is further needed to ensure the mind is clear on the conscious level, and if it has been sweeped clean enough, perhaps somewhat on the subconscious reactive level as well. It doesn't give you fighting ability - that has to be trained through fighting whatever way you want.

It gives you fertile soil to plant seeds - if you want a fighting plant, plant some fighting seeds there. It takes away some of the guessing in power generation and mental reactions to 'attackers' and helps us understand our self.

It isn't that you all the sudden obtain "Internal Power" and can defeat everyone - that is just the false image so many people are painting from both imaginary sides of the argument. It is in stages and levels, if you train a little more, you'll get a little more result.

[Miqi]

Hi Miqi


Sounds the same from my experience.

I think very important is the "relaxed" aspect you mentioned. I spent my first couple years in a harder southern style, where my shigong (teacher's teacher) was of the attitude that you "Punch until your arm is too tired to stay up/you are too tired to punch hard. Then your punches will have real power"

I didn't train like this, although my coach did.

Basically the idea was - once you wear out the "breaks" on the car- then you won't be driving with the breaks on. Internal arts, from what I've seen, simply start at the other end of the spectrum and recognize that power comes from relaxation of the structure. That doesn't mean you have to move slow, necessarily, but that you should only move as fast as you are coordinated.

This might be something that I understand pphysically, but not when put specifically like this.

I think the question itself rests on the assumption that "Internal Nei Gong" power is in it's own mutually exclusive category - which I don't think it is.

Agreed.

Typically people who go around making supernatural claims and showing them off would be scammers.

If such supernatural powers really existed - why wouldn't they using them to heal people and do good deeds with those supernatural powers?

Well, I'm not qualified to recognise their merits - I just see it as people who use the same terms but do something completely different.

-----------------------------------------

I think a video here shows a fairly high accomplished level of Internal control and skill:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yzdy07nvD9g

Can you give an example of someone who practices Chinese nei gong training and methods? Otherwise there is a danger that people will show thai boxers, mma fighters and so on and say look this is evidence that Chinese wushu is great.

I agree with Robinhood in that - one of the major focuses of having some internal practice is in learning principles of expending the least amount of physical and mental effort and being efficient in movement.

More importantly, people like Muhammad Ali, or my first external TCMA teacher - had some good internal power and efficiency in movement that took them a LOT of years to learn - and included some natural talent as well.

Nei Gong, IME, equals out that playing field by teaching anyone how to use their body more efficiently in a relaxed manner from the start - and with a more formulaic approach instead of spending years "wearing out the breaks"

I think bringing in Ali in this way is useful in terms of explaining body method, but on the other hand, unhelpfully muddying the waters in that there is an unfortunate chance that some people might be 'thrown in' with him, as if to say they are like him. Which would be an eyebrow raiser to say the least.

I'm quite a beginner really. If at all I have small attainment. A good amount of my post here is theory - I'll make sure and mention each time I am talking theoretically - that way you can ignore it if you feel it is not pragmatic enough.

I feel that video illustration is a very useful way of establishing what we're talking about. I don't mean to press anyone into showing anything.

IMO, If you want to be a great fighter and learn how to apply your internal efficiency, then just fight - and get advice from your teacher. It's really pretty simple.

This is good advice.

------------------------------------------

My point is - Nei Gong has formulated ways to give results of efficiency, relaxation, and can set the foundation for clarity of conscious mind.

From there, depending on the path you take and how you train - perhaps some clarity of the conscious mind could lead to clarity of the subconscious habitual mind.

I could even go as far to say you'd better do good deeds and things that help other people, not hurt other people. Then you will really be cleaning your conscious mind. Through repitition of good deeds and clarity of conscious mind, we might be able to clean some dust off the subconscious mind and then we really might have a little internal benefit to speak of.

This is really just cheap talk though from me - just my perspective on how the Buddha's teachings are at the center of it. All theory really unless you practice it and test it for yourself.

I'm sure this is true. I was just interested when you said that nei gong is useful for combat. Do you mean that nei gong's real use isn't practical in terms of fight skills, but mentalm in terms of clarity of mind - a kind of meditation aspect to be attached to other, actually fight based, training methods such as western boxing?

If you want to watch fighting, Muhammad Ali gives a good level of efficiency in bodily movement.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yzdy07nvD9g

IMO, a good application video could be anything. If your skill is high, the application video could be of you raking your garden, or doing dishes - could be of you painting your deck or sanding your floor.

A mind without discursive thinking in all of these things will contribute to that conscious clarity that can wash the unconscious bit by bit - but this is really just more of cheap theory I am interpreting from Buddhism admittedly.




Here are some monks sparring around with a young guy who likes to spar. I doubt they get a lot of exposure to sparring around with other stylists, or other fighters, as their focus is on the Buddhas teachings, and not necessarily on sparring.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=prJ21...utu.be&t=39m7s

As to from me - I wouldn't make such videos as my skill is quite low and my focus isn't fighting. If you wanted to be a great fighter though - why not just tell your teacher you want to focus on it. Then learn from him - and if you want to hang out with other stylists, you can test out there to, and elsewhere?

If my own beliefs aren't clear - it is that internal is a component of training, an important component. In fighting, it is needed to ensure there is little to no recovery time from mis-step, or unexpected stepping of the other person. It is further needed to ensure the mind is clear on the conscious level, and if it has been sweeped clean enough, perhaps somewhat on the subconscious reactive level as well. It doesn't give you fighting ability - that has to be trained through fighting whatever way you want.

It gives you fertile soil to plant seeds - if you want a fighting plant, plant some fighting seeds there. It takes away some of the guessing in power generation and mental reactions to 'attackers' and helps us understand our self.

It isn't that you all the sudden obtain "Internal Power" and can defeat everyone - that is just the false image so many people are painting from both imaginary sides of the argument. It is in stages and levels, if you train a little more, you'll get a little more result.

Thanks for the insights. I'm sure you are being too polite about your own level.

[Miqi]

I don't thinkl anyone claims they can hit a heavy bag harder with internal, look toward internal being more efficient and accurate, and takes less time and effort to execute techniques. It more along the lines of focused lines of force or energy , its not about wasting energy muscling inanimate objects , but interacting with alive objects.

Hi Robinhood,
Sports science shows that hitting bags is an excellent way to develop power, accuracy, speed and combat capability, and there would be literally thousands, if not tens of thousands, of videos and examples of people who use this method, who can generate power on a bag, and can use it in a fight.

Your description implies a superior training method.

[Matthew]

Well, I'm not qualified to recognise their merits - I just see it as people who use the same terms but do something completely different.

Yes I think terminology is a tough hurdle here.

That's why I started this thread - to find more english resources to give people a more defined understanding of what Nei Gong means through those who teach it.

Can you give an example of someone who practices Chinese nei gong training and methods?

The links I provided a couple posts ago show some English speaking sites from teachers that practice it as part of their training.

I'm hoping more people surface as this thread goes on that give good examples as well.

Otherwise there is a danger that people will show thai boxers, mma fighters and so on and say look this is evidence that Chinese wushu is great.

If you noticed from the beginning - I've tried to denote my posts as "IMO (In my opinion)/ IME (In my experience)" because there are so many things I am not aware of or exposed to.

So my opinion may vary - and that is why I started this thread, to get some more legitimate discussion about this in the open instead of flame wars on so many other threads on the forum.

So I started the thread in the Chinese saying's idea of "casting a stone to attract jade"

--------------------------------

Well - I think [the Chinese Wushu greatness claim] lies on the false assumption that Internal Skill/Practice (Nei Gong) is only part of Chinese Wushu.

I think Nei Gong can be developed through long practice, no matter if it is skiing, farming, physical labor, boxing, thai boxing, or anything.

I think where the Chinese Wushu claim comes in - is that many Chinese schools of healing, martial arts, and even Buddhist and Daoist schools (and even to some minor extent some practice methods may even be common knowledge of chinese people "Chuan Tong Kan Fa" Traditional observances that average Chinese know)

...have Nei Gong down to a very systematized, readily articulated, and organized practice moreso than boxers, thai boxers, physical laborers, skiiers, etc....

who instead depend on repetition of practice (even if it there is significant tension in their body "breaks on the car") to develop efficiency of body, relaxation and 'proper' posture, and clarity of mind.

I think that is the claim - that Chinese tradition has been developing and honing these internal practices as part of culture - so they are readily picked up and integrated as an expedient method to learning efficiency of body movement, relaxation and 'proper' posture, and clarity of mind.

I don't know of claims that Chinese wushu makes superior street fighters than these other arts do (beyond movies maybe) - but IMO, it does make it great in the Ability to teach those bodily efficiency methods in a more expedient manner.

IMO, even if you had a long time Chinese art practitioner beating everyone up in MMA, it wouldn't have to do with being a Chinese art practitioner, but that individuals natural ability combined with his motivation to do that.

I think bringing in Ali in this way is useful in terms of explaining body method, but on the other hand, unhelpfully muddying the waters in that there is an unfortunate chance that some people might be 'thrown in' with him, as if to say they are like him. Which would be an eyebrow raiser to say the least.

Muddy waters for sure - I made this thread to get everyones feet in those waters - instead of beating around the bush with argument after argument about this stuff.

Again with my idea of "casting a stone to attract the jade"

Well - I don't think Nei Gong is exclusive to Chinese Wushu, although, as I stated, I think it's methods are quite understood, systematized, and practiced in some Chinese schools.

So I think it is again the case that if someone said "I have Nei Gong just like Muhammad Ali" then I don't know if they are claiming to have the bodily efficiency and power generation Muhammad Ali had - or the fighting prowess in the boxing ring.

If they said, "I practice nei gong to develop bodily efficiency in movement. I think it is an expedient device to moving more efficiently." Then I can understand their logic.

I was just interested when you said that nei gong is useful for combat. Do you mean that nei gong's real use isn't practical in terms of fight skills, but mentalm in terms of clarity of mind - a kind of meditation aspect to be attached to other, actually fight based, training methods such as western boxing?

I think it is more than a simple meditation aspect ( although, IMO, is important)

It could include assisting in maintaining balance and posture, which is crucial to recovery from misstep, and in general in positioning/movement in fighting.

It could also include helping with efficiency of movement, which is vital in not tiring yourself out in a match with excessive movement.

I think these things, depending on your definition of "practical fighting skills" can be considered direct benefits. At the least, one would have to admit they are indirectly beneficial.

---------------------------------------------

I think the greater benefit comes from being able to use those postural, breathing, mental, etc. methods in daily life. Standing in a waiting line, doing the laundry, hoeing your garden, etc where you can still follow the guidelines of your Lian Fa (practice methods) to continue to build efficiency of movement even when not practicing directly for fighting.

I think it also depends on how we are defining Nei Gong and how it is trained within our lineage. Some lineages I've seen only use it to define the basic health exercises, while some use it to discuss the internal workings of everything you do.



---------------------------------------------

I'm happy this discussion is out in the open and is seeming to have a lot of views and interest.

I'm surprised more long-term practitioners who know some Chinese language, or have had some experience with such terminologies haven't tried to "tread these muddy waters" earlier on despite seeing how much of this forum devolves into petty arguments about what Internal means.

[Miqi]

Well - I think [the Chinese Wushu greatness claim] lies on the false assumption that Internal Skill/Practice (Nei Gong) is only part of Chinese Wushu.

This is true. But lack of demonstration of applied skill cannot eternally be deferred on the grounds that applied skill is only ‘one part’ of wushu.

I think Nei Gong can be developed through long practice, no matter if it is skiing, farming, physical labor, boxing, thai boxing, or anything.

I think where the Chinese Wushu claim comes in - is that many Chinese schools of healing, martial arts, and even Buddhist and Daoist schools (and even to some minor extent some practice methods may even be common knowledge of chinese people "Chuan Tong Kan Fa" Traditional observances that average Chinese know)

...have Nei Gong down to a very systematized, readily articulated, and organized practice moreso than boxers, thai boxers, physical laborers, skiiers, etc....

who instead depend on repetition of practice (even if it there is significant tension in their body "breaks on the car") to develop efficiency of body, relaxation and 'proper' posture, and clarity of mind.

I think that is the claim - that Chinese tradition has been developing and honing these internal practices as part of culture - so they are readily picked up and integrated as an expedient method to learning efficiency of body movement, relaxation and 'proper' posture, and clarity of mind.

I don't know of claims that Chinese wushu makes superior street fighters than these other arts do (beyond movies maybe) - but IMO, it does make it great in the Ability to teach those bodily efficiency methods in a more expedient manner.

This seems very close to saying that the effectiveness of nei gong is proved by the level of everyone who does anything well – except those who do wushu. Which is a bit of a pickle.

IMO, even if you had a long time Chinese art practitioner beating everyone up in MMA, it wouldn't have to do with being a Chinese art practitioner, but that individuals natural ability combined with his motivation to do that.

Yes, there’s a lot of truth in that. However, the truth of a coaching method in this sense is not in its specific exceptions, but in its generalised applicability. The muay thai, san da and MMA coaching methods can churn out competent fighters, one after the other, on an industrial scale. Whereas, we cannot even get a video of one well-known internal master punching a bag full contact. That also is a bit of an unfortunate pickle.

Muddy waters for sure - I made this thread to get everyones feet in those waters - instead of beating around the bush with argument after argument about this stuff.

Still, I don’t think we should be saying that such and such a Chinese master’s system is shown to be effective because of the way Ali fought.

Again with my idea of "casting a stone to attract the jade"

Well - I don't think Nei Gong is exclusive to Chinese Wushu, although, as I stated, I think it's methods are quite understood, systematized, and practiced in some Chinese schools.

So I think it is again the case that if someone said "I have Nei Gong just like Muhammad Ali" then I don't know if they are claiming to have the bodily efficiency and power generation Muhammad Ali had - or the fighting prowess in the boxing ring.

If they said, "I practice nei gong to develop bodily efficiency in movement. I think it is an expedient device to moving more efficiently." Then I can understand their logic.

Again, this makes me uncomfortable. It’s like claiming that western boxing proves nei gong and then saying that even so, the Chinese do it best. That just doesn’t add up.

I think it is more than a simple meditation aspect ( although, IMO, is important)

It could include assisting in maintaining balance and posture, which is crucial to recovery from misstep, and in general in positioning/movement in fighting.

It could also include helping with efficiency of movement, which is vital in not tiring yourself out in a match with excessive movement.

I think these things, depending on your definition of "practical fighting skills" can be considered direct benefits. At the least, one would have to admit they are indirectly beneficial.

Well, if nei gong is merely this, then I understand it implicitly after all. In fact, I’m quite good at it. But I would say, this should only be a small part of your training.

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I think the greater benefit comes from being able to use those postural, breathing, mental, etc. methods in daily life. Standing in a waiting line, doing the laundry, hoeing your garden, etc where you can still follow the guidelines of your Lian Fa (practice methods) to continue to build efficiency of movement even when not practicing directly for fighting.

I think it also depends on how we are defining Nei Gong and how it is trained within our lineage. Some lineages I've seen only use it to define the basic health exercises, while some use it to discuss the internal workings of everything you do.

I don’t think you’re wrong – but it rings an alarm bell for me, from a sports science perspective, when non-fight application seems to be more emphasised the more the subject turns to fight application.

However, if all we’re saying is that nei gong improves some basic structural skills and balance, then there’s no problem with that. I think it makes me hit harder, by increasing fine motor control, relaxation and postural alignment. But I can hit a bag – so anyone who can’t doesn’t do what I do.

I'm happy this discussion is out in the open and is seeming to have a lot of views and interest.

I'm surprised more long-term practitioners who know some Chinese language, or have had some experience with such terminologies haven't tried to "tread these muddy waters" earlier on despite seeing how much of this forum devolves into petty arguments about what Internal means.

I don’t believe that the argument is petty by any means.

[xinyidizi]

Now at least I understand why some good teachers never mention these terms and theories to their students at the beginning and instead focus on practical training until after the students have developed some dantian and Qi sensitivity on their own. There is no way one can understand what neigong means before one has already experienced it. If someone can't sense the Qi flow then you have to explain it to him in terms that he understands like posture, breathing, relaxation, body alignment, ... These things are not the definition of neigong on their own though they are all related to each other.

I believe good Qi flow is at the core of Neigong and it can automatically result in proper posture, breathing, relaxation, body alignment, health, ... Most animals are born with that but due to being away from the natural environment for thousands of years, society, pollution,... our bodies are in most cases not 通(open?) enough and in order to restore the flow we need to manually improve it indirectly from the other way around(posture, breathing, relaxation, body alignment,...), and probably even directly after building up enough dantian power and body awareness. After it has been restored we can move properly like most other animals and use all of our power efficiently.