Develop bad habits from sport

[LaRoux]

I had many hours discussion with a Chen Taiji teacher yesterday. He told me that one of his students was a wrestler. When that student trained Chen Taiji form, his head would move infront of his hands. The Chen Taiji teacher tried to correct him but without much luck. It seems that student's body posture was developed at much younger age.

I got on Google and find some pictures and clips. Indeed, their postures are to put their head before their hands.

http://imageshack.us/a/img43/2371/wrestling1h.jpg

http://img687.imageshack.us/img687/6206/wrestling2z.jpg

In the following clip, we can see that wrestling special posture at 0.15, 1.30, ...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pVCegcfWXp8

All MA sport can develop bad habits. Should we try to avoid it to start with, or should we try to fix it later on?

Your thought?

I'd say the one with the biggest bad habit would be the magical thinking of that Taiji instructor.

Bad habits developed in styles like Taiji, in which the most resistance one gets is in doing push hands, are going to be far worse than those developed in a fully-resistant sport like wrestling.

Any "bad habits" developed in the sport specific environment of competitive wrestling are easily adapted to the full range of unarmed combat, which is why wrestlers have been some of the most successful at adapting to MMA.

[pazman]

I'd say the one with the biggest bad habit would be the magical thinking of that Taiji instructor.

Bad habits developed in styles like Taiji, in which the most resistance one gets is in doing push hands, are going to be far worse than those developed in a fully-resistant sport like wrestling.

Any "bad habits" developed in the sport specific environment of competitive wrestling are easily adapted to the full range of unarmed combat, which is why wrestlers have been some of the most successful at adapting to MMA.

If the guy is wanting to learn taiji, I doubt he's training for MMA. Where was this even mentioned?

[LaRoux]

If the guy is wanting to learn taiji, I doubt he's training for MMA. Where was this even mentioned?

He was talking about "bad habits", such as putting the head forward. This is not a bad habit in contexts where you aren't worried about someone punching you in the face.

[pazman]

He was talking about "bad habits", such as putting the head forward. This is not a bad habit in contexts where you aren't worried about someone punching you in the face.

I don't think he was saying it's bad when done in wrestling, but I think it's fair to say that every coach must take into context of what their students' previous training. If the wrestling guy decided he wanted to learn some taiji form (as a hobby, something new to do, etc), then the wrestler's previous habits would become a "bad habit" in the realm of taiji taolu.

There was no mention that the guy was there to learn how to fight.

[LaRoux]

I don't think he was saying it's bad when done in wrestling, but I think it's fair to say that every coach must take into context of what their students' previous training. If the wrestling guy decided he wanted to learn some taiji form (as a hobby, something new to do, etc), then the wrestler's previous habits would become a "bad habit" in the realm of taiji taolu.

There was no mention that the guy was there to learn how to fight.

Fair enough. However, if wrestlers can learn to keep their heads back in the context of MMA, I'm pretty sure they can easily do the same in the context of taiji.

[pazman]

Fair enough. However, if wrestlers can learn to keep their heads back in the context of MMA, I'm pretty sure they can easily do the same in the context of taiji.

Yeah, me too.

The problem sounds like taiji coach needs to review his methods, develop training cues suited to this student, and also examine why wrestlers stand the way they do. Every good coach doesn't dismiss their students' previous training. I think instead of complaining of bad habits, the coach can maybe look for the "good habits" that the athlete brings from his wrestling experience.

[Dragonzbane76]

The problem sounds like taiji coach needs to review his methods, develop training cues suited to this student, and also examine why wrestlers stand the way they do. Every good coach doesn't dismiss their students' previous training. I think instead of complaining of bad habits, the coach can maybe look for the "good habits" that the athlete brings from his wrestling experience

this is what I was thinking.

[Scythefall]

I don't think it's right to try and blame the student's wrestling training for his inability to correct his own posture. I mean, unless he's got some kind of injury that forces him to have an incorrect posture.

Some students just plain don't listen. Without the student's comments I can't really guess what he might be thinking.

We had a guy in my class who always flung his head around when he'd do kicks. The teachers would stop him and tell him and he'd go right on doing it without even a single attempt to correct. Some people have no body awareness.

[xinyidizi]

I had many hours discussion with a Chen Taiji teacher yesterday. He told me that one of his students was a wrestler. When that student trained Chen Taiji form, his head would move infront of his hands. The Chen Taiji teacher tried to correct him but without much luck. It seems that student's body posture was developed at much younger age.

I got on Google and find some pictures and clips. Indeed, their postures are to put their head before their hands.

http://imageshack.us/a/img43/2371/wrestling1h.jpg

http://img687.imageshack.us/img687/6206/wrestling2z.jpg

In the following clip, we can see that wrestling special posture at 0.15, 1.30, ...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pVCegcfWXp8

All MA sport can develop bad habits. Should we try to avoid it to start with, or should we try to fix it later on?

Your thought?

Rules of the game form our techniques and postures. There is no need to correct it directly. Just punch/slap his head every time he leaves it unprotected and he will correct himself automatically. If he leaves his groin unprotected as well you can kick, knee or strike on his lower abdomen a few times and he won't make that mistake. At least that's how my teacher used to correct us. No need to do it with full power to cause injury.

[YouKnowWho]

There is no need to correct it directly. Just punch/slap his head every time he leaves it unprotected and he will correct himself automatically.

Agree! The best correction is not from words but from action.

Everytime when I punched at my student and he gave me a hard block, I always borrowed his blocking force, span my arm, and changed my straight punch into a hook punch at his head. After I did that several times, my student stopped to block my punch too hard. He also develop a good habit that after he blocks my punch, my punch will change, he has to deal with my changing after that. Now he is thinking one step ahead of his game.

[Robinhood]

Agree! The best correction is not from words but from action.

Everytime when I punched at my student and he gave me a hard block, I always borrowed his blocking force, span my arm, and changed my straight punch into a hook punch at his head. After I did that several times, my student stopped to block my punch too hard. He also develop a good habit that after he blocks my punch, my punch will change, he has to deal with my changing after that. Now he is thinking one step ahead of his game.

Thinking ahead ? ,might be the wrong description. Not thinking would be better.

[David Jamieson]

If you are training to participate in sport, I don't know what bad habits you would develop. You are training towards that sport.

I think you are at greater risk of developing bad habits in martial arts by training in a bubble of compliance and non testing.

Sport will teach you a lot more quickly when you are failing than by trying to correct without understanding how something is broken in the first place.

One thing I constantly encounter with Kung Fu people often is that they leave their pumpkin out like a big target with way too much frequency. Cover your head, keep your guard up and be fully aware of the whole body in front of you.

Wrestling trains the position forward because there isn't a threat of being hit in the head. Why Kung Fu people or Karate or the worst of all to do it are TKD people do this is a mystery. It's also martially foolish. Get your hands up!

[MasterKiller]

Chambering your fists to your waist when you punch is way more retarded.

[Brule]

Chambering your fists to your waist when you punch is way more retarded.

Probably because you haven't been taught correctly. This move is not as retarded as you think. It teaches you to keep your elbows in when punching and to drive forward towards your target. It also gets your head out of the way as you can see the lead foot is off to the side compared to the back foot, so there is minimal chance of getting hit.

Sorry, I tried to but I agree. It's retarded...

[David Jamieson]

Chambering your fists to your waist when you punch is way more retarded.

Not as a training mechanism.

As a fighting tactic? Yes, it's foolish to do this.
To train someone to keep the elbows down and the arms closer to the body, it's a viable method.

chambered kicks and punches are beginners drills after all.
It's not like guys who have finally mastered their style "train" this. They teach it, but train it?