VTM Discussion\Black Flag Wing Chun

[SimonW]

Why is the myth of the Southern Shaolin temple still being perpetuated? And why is it that KFM keeps publishing this nonsense even though every serious scholar disproved it years ago (as early as the 1930's!)

Perhaps KFM would like to cross reference the articles it publishes and consult with people who actually know what they are talking about such as Stanley Henning, who I am sure would only be too glad to put things straight with real corroborated evidence.

I don't mind people making up martial arts styles. But please be honest about it if you are.

[t_niehoff]

And if you read the book I recommended,

http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/foru...ad.php?t=53691

you'll see that the whole Shaolin story is made up and not historically accurate. Why does the VTM continue to promote it? That's obvious: marketing.

[Chango]

Terence,

It is simply a position that one might have. It has been said many times on here that at one point there is no written word as to where wing chun came from . The book you have made reference to makes a very strong argument. But it's just that. one of many points of views on history. The function of this thread is to invite the community to come and experience and share what this lineage has to offer. If you feel differently that's fine I will personally extend a olive branch to you to come and share. If you don't like this format then by all means call the museum and see if you can set up a day that you can share what you have to offer at the VTM. Terence you have to realize you are my brother in martialarts and not my enemy and it's not my side vs yours. You may have a different point of view but it's all good. If that one point is a issue. I'm not that attached to it. My connection or friendship with you does not live and die on if you believe in the shoulin history or not.

That being said can we not turn this into a history debate threads that take us nowhere again!! Point is simple here. This Black flag lineage from experience is a great opportunity and if you can attend please do so. I know I will be there!

[t_niehoff]

Simon asked (directly above my post) why the Southern Shaolin myth was being perpetuated. I gave my answer. It's not being perpetuated as just another historical "possibility".

I've never said you were my enemy or thought of you that way. Introducing and showcasing various branches of WCK is great. And it can be done without all the attendant nonsense assoicated with trying to bolster historical myth.

And let's face it Chango, if the "Black's Flag" origin myth was the Ng Mui story, I don't think Benny/VTM would be asking people to come hear discussion on the history of the "new" lineage.

BTW, the reference to "the Third Hall of the Southern Shaolin Temple" - isn't that Benny's own concept.

[Hudson Li]

I see Meng's Martial Arts websites carry no more references to the Hung Fa Yi branch of Wing Chun anylonger and now the way the V.T.M. is promoting the Black Flag branch makes me believe the later is replacing H.F.Y. in Benny Meng's approach to W.C.

[Chango]

Hudson,

Your assertions are incorrect H.F.Y. and the V.T.M. have always been two different things. So at this point it is clear on the web site. This was a complaint by some in the past (****ed if you do! ****ed if you don't) We have promoted many different lineages in the past HFY, Chi SIm, TWC, Moy Yat, Ip Ching, Ip chun, etc.... This does not mean the VTM staff is converting. This is the function of the VTM. I do have to admit that I'm very impressed with what I've been shown so far. I have to also say that I've been very impressed some of the others I've seen. We live in a great time for Wing chun and I'm really glad that the VTM has provided me a place where I get to experience 1st hand from the top representatives all of the great lineages that have came and shared and represented their culture and methods.

Terence,

Once again this is not a debate. I'm sure you raise valid points however this simply is not the thread to do that in.

I get it you do not like how the information is presented this has been noted.

As far as those who have the Ng mui history. To this day we have hosted more masters with Ng Mui historical lineage then those with shaolin. All of them have been presented in a fashion that states their history as it is. Weather the VTM agrees with it or not.

As I said I offered you an open invite to present what you have. Make the arrangements if not then lets still move on.

As for the third hall concept please do not assume that just because you don't understand it or you're not aware of it that it does not exist or it belongs to the person who presents it. This concept is not Benny Meng's as you have put it. But once again I do not wish to see this thread hi-jacked with debate.

Are you going or not? if so it will be great to see you! If not then I hope the next time you can make it.

[t_niehoff]

Are you going or not? if so it will be great to see you! If not then I hope the next time you can make it.

No, I won't be attending. I no longer have any interest in seeing more "branches" of WCK -- for me, it's just more of the same (and not in a good way), only with different packaging.

[Hudson Li]

Chango,

It's clear to me that the V.T.M. is such a huge umbrella that covers as many W.C. styles as possible, and that's an amazing job.
I note, however, that Meng's Martial Arts websites do not mention H.F.Y. as a part of its program anylonger, rather they mention Shaolin Wing Chun and Three Halls of Shaolin (as Terence pointed out, something created by Benny Meng).
So I'm inclined to believe that Benny Meng is letting go of H.F.Y. and slowly replacing it by Black Flag Wing Chun.
It's amazing that nowadays Black Flag shares the same information and the same wordings, in Benny Meng's well known style, that were attributed to H.F.Y.

For instance, http://www.shaolinkungfucenter.com/main.html

"Black Flag Eng Chun ( Wing Chun ) style can be seen as the "Martial Science" which is the application of the human skeleton, body mechanics and energy management at the right time and right place.
The reality of self defense is how to stop an opponent's attack using the most direct and economical means possible with the least amount of time, space and energy.
How ? There are some core concepts and formulas in the Black Flag Wing Chun system, which are the essence of the original Shaolin Fukien combat technology, that allow any practitioner to express themselves without relying on muscle size/strength, speed and hundreds of techniques."

Coincidences may happen, but sometimes they're too big to be considered as such.

[punchdrunk]

I like the idea of the VTM, and plan to visit one day. I don't feel a need to learn about every different version of wing chun but i admire how the museum has given so many schools and instructors a chance for public promotion. I wish them continued success in the future.

[Firehawk4]

It mentions something about Vikoga Wing Chun and Victor Leow , Malaysian Wing Chun , Yip Man Wing Chun and Something about Ho Yang Pai wich i think would be Ngo Cho Kun or Southern Tai Zhu . This is very confusing as i looked at the Black Flag Wing Chun History 3 or 4 years ago and what i thought was there history is what is at this website .I am confused .
http://www.wingchunpedia.org/pmwiki/...engChunHistory

[Hudson Li]

I've got this from Antonio Martins Junior, from Brazil:

"Benny Meng's Hung Fa Yi schools in Brazil are no more referred to as Hung Fa Kwoon. Benny's South American headquarters in Fortaleza has replaced its domain's name and its advertisements from Hung Fa Yi Wing Chun to Shaolin Wing Chun and is now announcing Black Flag Wing Chun as the elite of the anti-Qing secret societies, while, according to their renewed website, HFY was designed for average infantry soldiers. Check it out: www.hungfakwoon.com.br
This link will take you automatically to www.shaolinwingchun.com.br and show you Benny Meng's new venture".

I checked their nice site and I guess my perception on Benny Meng's moving from H.F.Y. to Black Flag Wing Chun was right.

[t_niehoff]

It looks like you're right.

[duende]

I've got this from Antonio Martins Junior, from Brazil:

"Benny Meng's Hung Fa Yi schools in Brazil are no more referred to as Hung Fa Kwoon. Benny's South American headquarters in Fortaleza has replaced its domain's name and its advertisements from Hung Fa Yi Wing Chun to Shaolin Wing Chun and is now announcing Black Flag Wing Chun as the elite of the anti-Qing secret societies, while, according to their renewed website, HFY was designed for average infantry soldiers. Check it out: www.hungfakwoon.com.br
This link will take you automatically to www.shaolinwingchun.com.br and show you Benny Meng's new venture".

I checked their nice site and I guess my perception on Benny Meng's moving from H.F.Y. to Black Flag Wing Chun was right.

For the record, HFY oral history and written codes from our Secret Society ancestors is very extensive. Much of which has not been shared with the public.

Therefore while Black Flag Wing Chun may have a "Red Flag Wing Chun" as well as a purple flag, green flag, yellow flag, and orange flag etc... in there history. Beyond all doubt, we can assure you it has nothing to do with Hung Fa Yi.

HFY stands for Red Flower Boxer Society NOT Red Flag WIng Chun. One only has to look at their body mechanics to see that the two have little in common.

As there is absolutely no HFY Sup Ming Dim/Tin Yan Dei body structure in there physical expression, or anything remotely similar in there awareness of Time Space and Energy. I could post pics for reference, but most of them were removed when BF WC redid their website. Thanks to Firehawk, I was made aware of them years ago.

http://www.hfy108.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2669
http://www.hfy108.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2665

The VTM seeks out new branches of Wing Chun as a part of their stated mission. I wish them all the best in their endeavors, and look forward to hearing more about Black Flag Wing Chun. But it is important to be clear... Hung Fa Yi does not equal Red Flag WIng Chun.


Good training to all.

[Hudson Li]

Duende,

Thank you for your precious inputs. I must confess that I'm confused at this point, since the V.T.M. is supposed to be an unbiased organisation, and with a little good will it will be understood by those who read Spanish that Benny Meng is declaring at his Brazilian website that according to historical records Hung Fa Yi Wing Chun was taught to regular Infantry and Black Flag Wing Chun was taught to the Elite revolutionary troups. It will also be understood that the words Flag and Bandana used to share the same meaning, so Hung Gun could be translated as Red Bandana or Red Flag.

As to Benny Meng's convertion into Black Flag, I asked Antonio Martins to translate a piece of the Brazilian website, and here's what I got:

"Benny Meng has been acting behind Garrett Gee's back for at least the last four years. With the help of a self-proclaimed Wing Chun Sifu called Alexandre Magnos de Brito, Benny created a web of pseudo-HFY schools throughout Brazil, distributing the title of "HFY black belt" to people who had not even had one single day of instruction in HFY. The first Brazilian HFY group, formed in Rio de Janeiro, tried to make Garrett Gee see it, in vain. When Garrett Gee came to Fortaleza, Northern Brazil, I myself tried to talk to him about it, but he did not give me ears. Now Benny Meng's and Alex Magnos' betrayal are no more hidden. That's what is written on the homepage of Benny Meng's headquarters in Brazil:

Portuguese * Uma vez mais, Mestre Benny Meng iniciou seu processo de aprendizagem e promoção dessa "nova" linhagem de Wing Chun que também preservou os Três Tesouros do Chan/Zen, Qigong e Artes Marciais do Shaolin do Sul. Essa linhagem é a linhagem Hek Ki Boen Eng Chun (Haak Kei Mun Wing Chun). Hoje, a missão do Ving Tsun Museum e da Shaolin Red Flower Boxer Society, através de seus líderes, Mestre Benny Meng e Sifu Alex Magnos, é promover o Ciência Martial Shaolin, transmitindo o conhecimento dessa ciência através das artes marciais para todos os praticantes que têm as qualidades de um verdadeiro Guerreiro Marcial e conduzir a todos que busquem o caminho para chegar ao Estágio Último de evolução Marcial (Físico, Mental e Espiritual) atingido pelos monges guerreiros de Shaolin - chamado Weng Kiu [永橋] (Iluminação ou Momento Enterno).

English * Once more, Master Benny Meng began his learning process and the promotion of this "new" lineage of Wing Chun that has also preserved the Three Treasures Cha/Zen, Qigong and Martial Arts of Southern Shaolin. This lineage is Hek Ki Boen Chun (Hakka Kei Mun Wing Chun). Nowadays, the mission of the Ving Tsun Museum and the Red Flower Boxer Society, through its leaders, Master Benny Meng and Sifu Alex Magnos, is to promote the Martial Science of Shaolin, by transmitting the knowledge of this science through the Martial Arts to any practitioner that has the qualities of a true martial warrior, and to lead everyone who seeks the way for the Ultimate Level of martial evolution (physical, mental and spiritual) that was attained by the warrior monks of Shaolin - called Weng Kiu (ilumination or eternal moment).

This is confusing, at least for me. Why would Benny Meng, a well known and respected Wing Chun master, convert from Hung Fa Yi into Black Flag Wing Chun, just as he had converted from Moy Yat into Hung Fa Yi ten years ago?
What is so strong in history and/or practice that led the V.T.M.'s Curator to declare that Hung Fa Yi was for avarage soldiers and Black Flag was for elite troups?
What is so important that made Benny Meng risk his reputation by opening H.F.Y. schools in South America in spite of Garrett Gee's approval, just for converting those schools into Shaolin/Black Flag Wing Chun in such a short time?
And why did Benny Meng choose to plant the seeds of his new project in the distant land of Brazil?

I can only see two options: or Benny Meng found out that H.F.Y. was not the advanced Martial Art he used to proclaim, or Benny Meng found in Black Flag a treasure that even H.F.Y. lost its value before his eyes. Whatever it is, the answer speaks no good of H.F.Y.'s credibility, that, by the way, has been involved in controversies and disputes since Benny Meng started that B.S. that "our" (Ng Mui/Yip Man) Wing Chun was inferior to "his" (Cheung Ng/Hung Fa Yi) Wing Chun.

B.T.W., Duende, would you mind to clarify if the postures of the Black Flag Wing Chun practitioners of Benny Meng's headquarters in Brazil that appear at http://www.shaolinwingchun.com.br/inicio.php are really different from H.F.Y.'s postures? I ask this because, in spite of your affirmation above, their physical expression reminds me the ones at Mastering Kung Fu.

[punchdrunk]

Any relation to the guys in this clip ? http://emsergipe.globo.com/multimidia/?id=17236 I posted this a long time ago it was hardly secret though they did deny it was HFY or at least decent HFY. http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/foru...ight=rare+clip Honestly whatever is happening in Brazil would be hard to get the full picture of unless we are there.