Years and years...

[Ali. R]

It only took me that long because I’d tried to pass to the next level without development and failed, and I chose to start over with a different mindset to find out way I failed (being honest to myself), but altogether, it would’ve took me about three years or -so in ‘Sli Lum Tao’.

[Robadob]

Depending on how often in a week you train and your commitment, you could learn the complete system probably in three to five years. VT is a closed system and like a dancer remembers a choreography, so can anyone learn the sequence of the forms by heart. Practitioning VT however is a comlete other story!
When I started, the shool I trained at, had a training scheme of half an hour physical training, then an hour of forms and technique training and the final last hour semi-contact sparring. In six to seven years (slow learner ) I knew all the forms, but could not apply all of it during sparring. In a way, thesparring slowed me down from 'getting' it because the pressure of sparring didn't allow for the development of fine skills. It took another sifu (WSL and PB) to point out the flaws in our system and emphasise thedevelopment of the finer skills of VT. In a way we had to start all over again! Rethinking the basics I suppose. Nowadays, after nearly 15 years I started training again, three years now, I still have to evaluateeverything I learned. In my opinion this process will never stop! With all the possibilities in Chi Sao, sparring and fighting you will always think of how you could have performed better and more efficient. VT is like chess. The rules are simple, the possibilies are however endless and you always need to improve yourself. Maybe it's even like golf, where your opponent is you!

[Ali. R]

I hear what you’re saying, but each form is a precursor of development, so why push yourself through the system only to start over, when each form before the next should only be a reference of understanding for the next stage of development?

Take care,

[Robadob]

I don't think you should force your way through the forms at all! This was just the way I learned the system over the years.
My point is that even with knowledge of the forms, comprehension and apreciation comes later, when pieces of the puzzle fall into place.
Isn't this the case with every learning method? In University, you also kinda crash course through all the subjects. Comprehension comes later in application, otherwise it is all virtual knowledge.

[Ali. R]

My point is that even with knowledge of the forms, comprehension and apreciation comes later, when pieces of the puzzle fall into place.

This is why it is important to develop through each level of the system, to take away the mystery or the frame of mind dealing with puzzling thoughts that may arrive in ones future development/understanding.

In University, you also kinda crash course through all the subjects. Comprehension comes later in application, otherwise it is all virtual knowledge.

.

Yes, but only to become familiar with one's future occupation. I wouldn’t want a dentist to give me a root canal before a strong understanding/comprehension of application.



Take care,

[Robadob]

This is why it is important to develop through each level of the system, to take away the mystery or the frame of mind dealing with puzzling thoughts that may arrive in ones future development/understanding.

.

Yes, but only to become familiar with one's future occupation. I wouldn’t want a dentist to give me a root canal before a strong understanding/comprehension of application.


Take care,

Agreed! I would still argue though that this dentist will have other/better understanding after ten years of practitioning compared to the start of his career.
Maybe even with more apreciation of the less common routines

[Ali. R]

What come first the application or knowledge and if knowledge is first, then why not work it within the form of development (understanding) before application?

True,,,, but sometimes everything gets better with life, but without a strong understanding or comprehension, how could one even start to have a career. No one will get hired in that situation without a degree; no matter how much they may think they know.

But if one develops their mind with the knowledge or understanding that he or she is trying to project, they will have a stronger promise of application. Rather than executing applications without development or a very good understanding, that will only cause malpractices and renewal of license (starting over).


Take care,

[Robadob]

But... But.... We're defending the same arguements here. When have you learned VT and when have you mastered it?
Even when you're considered a master by others, you still learn and develop.

[Ali. R]

True, but through development of the forms one will not have to wait for the “puzzle to fall in place”, but will grow and learn from his/her experiences or from what he or she has already developed, rather than gaining the understanding/comprehension through trial and error which is not a level of a master/teacher, but of a student/practitioner.


Take care,

[rfbrown3]

I only had a brief introduction to Wing Chun, less than a month. Two things that stood out to me that along with other factors going on in my life caused me to stop and take a step back to evaluate whether I wanted to continue in my class or not.

One factor is that in the organization I was in the instructor who by the way I really admired and thought he was great but could only promote odd levels and in this system there are 10 student levels before reaching "technician level." And then he could only promote up to level 7. All other levels had to be promoted by visiting instructors who the school would bring in for seminars, usually two or three weekends during the course of a year or the student would have to travel to a seminar being held somewhere.

What caught my attention was that in our school we only had one "Technician" level student other than the instructor and he had been attending class for 10 years and had only recently made first level Technician! I talked to a couple of other students who had been there for several years yet were only 5th to 7th level students. I made the decision that before I get too heavily invested in this school to take a step back and determine if this is the way I wanted to go and I decided to go in another direction instead.

Now I don't care about promotions other than being promoted is the way to further learn new techniques but I would much prefer a more traditional approach where a student is a disciple of a sifu and the sifu determines when the student is ready to learn new material. To that I have found such a school although it is not Wing Chun and I have to admit I miss Wing Chun and wish my school had a little more of the concepts that Wing Chun brings to the table but I am happy where I am now (Tai Chi, Hsing-I, Bagua). At least we don't have to test for levels, sashes, belts or certificates in order to learn new material! Hey not judging such things but that just wasn't what I was looking for.

The second red flag for me at this Wing Chun school was the hero worship of the organization's head. It really got to me class after class hearing about him. You know I don't doubt this person is a first class Wing Chun fighter and has a first class organization but the hero worship got a little too much for me.

Anyway no disrespect intended to my former Wing Chun instructor, he is a really great guy and I will truly miss him and his teaching but I had a decision to make and I made it.

[k gledhill]

I only had a brief introduction to Wing Chun, less than a month. Two things that stood out to me that along with other factors going on in my life caused me to stop and take a step back to evaluate whether I wanted to continue in my class or not.

One factor is that in the organization I was in the instructor who by the way I really admired and thought he was great but could only promote odd levels and in this system there are 10 student levels before reaching "technician level." And then he could only promote up to level 7. All other levels had to be promoted by visiting instructors who the school would bring in for seminars, usually two or three weekends during the course of a year or the student would have to travel to a seminar being held somewhere.

What caught my attention was that in our school we only had one "Technician" level student other than the instructor and he had been attending class for 10 years and had only recently made first level Technician! I talked to a couple of other students who had been there for several years yet were only 5th to 7th level students. I made the decision that before I get too heavily invested in this school to take a step back and determine if this is the way I wanted to go and I decided to go in another direction instead.

Now I don't care about promotions other than being promoted is the way to further learn new techniques but I would much prefer a more traditional approach where a student is a disciple of a sifu and the sifu determines when the student is ready to learn new material. To that I have found such a school although it is not Wing Chun and I have to admit I miss Wing Chun and wish my school had a little more of the concepts that Wing Chun brings to the table but I am happy where I am now (Tai Chi, Hsing-I, Bagua). At least we don't have to test for levels, sashes, belts or certificates in order to learn new material! Hey not judging such things but that just wasn't what I was looking for.

The second red flag for me at this Wing Chun school was the hero worship of the organization's head. It really got to me class after class hearing about him. You know I don't doubt this person is a first class Wing Chun fighter and has a first class organization but the hero worship got a little too much for me.

Anyway no disrespect intended to my former Wing Chun instructor, he is a really great guy and I will truly miss him and his teaching but I had a decision to make and I made it.

Some schools make you sign grading contracts too. Lots of bs $ making per grade , sub grade master level fee, 10 grades of master $ each. ; )

[anerlich]

VT is a closed system

No it ain't.

the instructor who by the way I really admired and thought he was great but could only promote odd levels

Was he allowed to step on cracks in the pavement?

[PalmStriker]

Some schools make you sign grading contracts too. Lots of bs $ making per grade , sub grade master level fee, 10 grades of master $ each. ; )

Goldfu Guanfistful'ofGold.

[chaotic2k]

Wing chun as a idea or concept can be passed on very quickley if the teacher has a decent knowledge of the system and can transcend that information to there students in a realistic "live" manner. When the concepts are used correctly even by someone with a few months experience can give an experienced practionaire a hard time. Thus why bother with belts when its possible for a white belt to floor a black belt.

I have friends who were under big kung fu associations that make you pay 3 months in advance and make you sign a contract to attend lessons. What they were taught was just made over cmplicated and full of nonsense.

[chaotic2k]

I only had a brief introduction to Wing Chun, less than a month. Two things that stood out to me that along with other factors going on in my life caused me to stop and take a step back to evaluate whether I wanted to continue in my class or not.

One factor is that in the organization I was in the instructor who by the way I really admired and thought he was great but could only promote odd levels and in this system there are 10 student levels before reaching "technician level." And then he could only promote up to level 7. All other levels had to be promoted by visiting instructors who the school would bring in for seminars, usually two or three weekends during the course of a year or the student would have to travel to a seminar being held somewhere.

What caught my attention was that in our school we only had one "Technician" level student other than the instructor and he had been attending class for 10 years and had only recently made first level Technician! I talked to a couple of other students who had been there for several years yet were only 5th to 7th level students. I made the decision that before I get too heavily invested in this school to take a step back and determine if this is the way I wanted to go and I decided to go in another direction instead.

Now I don't care about promotions other than being promoted is the way to further learn new techniques but I would much prefer a more traditional approach where a student is a disciple of a sifu and the sifu determines when the student is ready to learn new material. To that I have found such a school although it is not Wing Chun and I have to admit I miss Wing Chun and wish my school had a little more of the concepts that Wing Chun brings to the table but I am happy where I am now (Tai Chi, Hsing-I, Bagua). At least we don't have to test for levels, sashes, belts or certificates in order to learn new material! Hey not judging such things but that just wasn't what I was looking for.

The second red flag for me at this Wing Chun school was the hero worship of the organization's head. It really got to me class after class hearing about him. You know I don't doubt this person is a first class Wing Chun fighter and has a first class organization but the hero worship got a little too much for me.

Anyway no disrespect intended to my former Wing Chun instructor, he is a really great guy and I will truly miss him and his teaching but I had a decision to make and I made it.

Also its a shame so many wing chun clubs (martial arts clubs) operate in this big money making triangle. Very few guys out there doing it just for the love. Standards can drop quickley with this capatilist mindset.