Years and years...

[Sihing73]

Hello,

The reality is that if you teach for a living then you need to charge.
Things like rent, insurance etc need to be paid.
Most organizations are not about teaching the art but about making money, of course that is just my opinion.
Another reality is that sometimes when people pay for something they believe that they deserve the recognition even if they do not put in the hard work to get there.

Wing Chun as a system should be able to be learned fairly quickly. IMHO one should be able to fight with the system within about 6-8 months. Not at an advanced level but at least enough to be able to deal with most street encounters.

One does not need to learn a whole lot in order to be able to utilize the system. All one really needs are some basic concepts/techniques. Punch, Pak, Gaun and perhaps Taun should be a good foundation.

Now I train a few people outside of Atlanta. I have not charged anyone for lessons yet, although this may change in the future. One thing I have noticed is that when people do not pay for something they often fail to see the value. When people pay for something they are more apt to come to class and train as they do not wish to lose out on their investment.

However, one thing about not charging or not teaching for money is that it is up to me how and what I teach. If I do not feel a student is progressing then I am more than able to have them continue to train the same thing over and over till they get it. The student has a choice to either put in the effort or go elsewhere. And to be blunt, it really does not matter to me which way they choose.

In my view a student should be able to complete the entire Wing Chun system in 3-5 years. Of course such an approach is not the best for a marketing approach and making money. Now mastery of the system is a lifetime endeavor, imho.

[Ali. R]

Then again, there's a lot of them (sifus) that have nothing to offer but only systemic movements, and knows this and can’t develop a strong student base because of it, unless they'd trash talk individual's in a room full of grown men that are more than ignorant to the system.

Just like the sifu/teacher that has or show contempt on something because they don’t have a strong sense of development/understanding, but will fight feverishly against any true development because of their lack of understanding, only to bring down those that may know (politics), and that's all for the money as well.


Take care,

[Ali. R]

In my view a student should be able to complete the entire Wing Chun system in 3-5 years. Of course such an approach is not the best for a marketing approach and making money. Now mastery of the system is a lifetime endeavor, imho.

If mastery of the system is a life time endeavor then why try to get it all within three years, only to wonder around looking for more answers while in an advance level of the system, when all of the answers were found in the training forms (in the beginning).

The reason why most are still looking for answers is because one truly believed that they’d had the answers to go to the next level, when nothing was truly developed and because one choose not to listen to the truth within themselves; my POV.


Take care,

[rfbrown3]

Let me make this perfectly clear about my previous post. I have nothing but the highest respect for my former instructor, it was the organization's policy concerning promotions and seminars that was not compatible with what I was looking for when I decided to join a kung fu class.

I just wanted a school and I have found one, albeit not Wing Chun, where the sifu decides when a student is ready to learn new material and then simply begins to teach it to them.

In my former Wing Chun school you not only had the 10 student levels before reaching "Technician" level but in order to be certified as a "Technician" in Wing Chun the student also had to rank in Escrima and that is separate testing from the Wing Chun levels. Yeah, years and years...

Again my instructor ran a great class, it was just not the traditional structure I was looking for. And again I am not judging those who thrive in that type of learning environment, it just was not for me.

[Ali. R]

One would have to realize what these forms are, and what they’d develop and not put too much focus on movements and applications (physical contact) or you could easy fall right into this.

In my former Wing Chun school you not only had the 10 student levels before reaching "Technician" level but in order to be certified as a "Technician" in Wing Chun the student also had to rank in Escrima and that is separate testing from the Wing Chun levels. Yeah, years and years...

But, I believe that most keep taking that three to four, five year thing literally. But,,, in some cases there are some teachers that do things that would keep the student happy and distracted, because of their lack of knowledge (and for other reason).

And to have the mindset of: “I know this system”; completed within form and some drills (only three years). Well most,,, will run straight to that idea for self-gratification, and only to hurry through the system, when no good teacher in their right mind would allow that to happen.

It literally takes almost 4 to 6 months to learn the form correctly, and that’s cutting it real close dealing with structures/trouble shooting, line management and terminology/translations, and from trying to find one’s center of gravity alone sometimes takes waaaaaaay more time to develop (stance).


Take care,

[rfbrown3]

Don't get me wrong, I agree a lifetime of mastery.

[Ali. R]

Don't get me wrong, I agree a lifetime of mastery.

I too, but from the starting point of understanding/development through ‘Sifu’ to Mastery, and only through a strong development will my lifetime of experiences begin with promise rather than being puzzled, confused or looking for basic answers that should have been discovered and developed within those training forms: ‘Sil Lum Tao’,’ Chum Kil’ and ‘Mook Jong’.

[Sihing73]

If mastery of the system is a life time endeavor then why try to get it all within three years, only to wonder around looking for more answers while in an advance level of the system, when all of the answers were found in the training forms (in the beginning).

How long does it take to "learn" how to drive, to get ones license?

How long does it take to master driving a vehicle?

IMHO whatever one "learns" they continue to learn and master that thing throughout life, as long as they keep doing it.

[Ali. R]

How long does it take to "learn" how to drive, to get ones license?

Over the summer while in “drivers ed” (high school class), about one and a half months of classes and a six month waiting period (permit), about seven and a half months…. I’d liked the way you put “driver license” as a part of your analogy, that’s a very refreshing observation, thanks.

How long does it take to master driving a vehicle?

That’s based on what’s legal by the ‘State of Motor Vehicles’, or maybe you’re taking it to another level like ‘stunt driving’ (then ). I’d had an uncle that use to get letters of ‘recognition’ almost every other year or so; from the ‘State Capital of Arkansas’, which made him very proud and envied by others for not receiving more than two tickets within his lifetime (his experience) .

IMHO whatever one "learns" they continue to learn and master that thing throughout life, as long as they keep doing it.

But in the form of driving, obey the driven laws and deviate from having a poor ‘commonsense’, to be consider a ‘Master’ by your ‘State Capital’ or insurance company.


Take care,

[trubblman]

If you dont learn wing chun in 5 years, if you are dedicated, your si fu is using you for some other stuff...

Cool story, bro

[Sihing73]

Over the summer while in “drivers ed” (high school class), about one and a half months of classes and a six month waiting period (permit), about seven and a half months…. I’d liked the way you put “driver license” as a part of your analogy, that’s a very refreshing observation, thanks.

That’s based on what’s legal by the ‘State of Motor Vehicles’, or maybe you’re taking it to another level like ‘stunt driving’ (then ). I’d had an uncle that use to get letters of ‘recognition’ almost every other year or so; from the ‘State Capital of Arkansas’, which made him very proud and envied by others for not receiving more than two tickets within his lifetime (his experience) .

But in the form of driving, obey the driven laws and deviate from having a poor ‘commonsense’, to be consider a ‘Master’ by your ‘State Capital’ or insurance company.

Take care,

If you are equating obedience to the law as a determination of mastery in driving then you are thinking in terms of technique not in concepts. The obtaining of a permit and then license mean that one has demonstrated the needed proficiency required to pass the test and get the license. If you want you can compare this to getting your black belt. The journey to mastery is continued through ones continuing to drive in various circumstances and developing greater proficiency.

The legal requirements do not indicate any real mastery as related to driving. The experience one gains driving in differing circumstances will aid one in exploring concepts of driving and developing skills in all aspects: driving in fog, rain, snow, ice at night etc. These are not things which are determined by the "law" other than in very broad peripheral ways. For example it is not against the law to drive in a thunderstorm but if one has an accident then they could potentially be charged for something like Driving too fast for conditions.

So to help make it clear I do not think of Wing Chun in terms of techniques but in terms of concepts and then in how to apply those concepts via techniques. You can learn all of the concepts and techniques within the Wing Chun system rather quickly. Ones understanding and ability to apply those concepts via techniques can be explored and developed over a lifetime. It is also possible to be able to apply and learn the system without completing it as well. Provided one has a firm foundation and understanding of the concepts behind the system.

Since you like my car analogy here's another one for you

The English language has 26 letters or 52 if you want to include both upper and lower case. The basic letters are learned in kindergarten but students spend another several years in learning how to write properly. Much like Wing Chun a good writer can put together thousands of words using just those limited number of letters. Would you try to say that it takes years to learn the alphabet and not to agree that the alphabet can be learned quickly but that true mastery of the written word can take much longer? Also to apply those words one needs to understand basic grammatical rules and be able to apply them as well. However, many good writers often ignore the "rules" yet produce excellent books. So is it their understanding of the grammatical rules which insures their success or the ability to think outside of the box in order to write effectively? Which approach indicates mastery?

[Ali. R]

I’m not following you and don’t understand, maybe its apples and oranges because you’re obviously upset to the fact that I liked your post; did I not have your permission to?

Or maybe you’re still trying to figure out what you’d wrote and then it hit you, forcing you to make me feel the backlash of your embarrassment. If not, then why jump on me?


But,,, it’s okay,

[Sihing73]

I’m not following you and don’t understand, maybe its apples and oranges because you’re obviously upset to the fact that I liked your post; did I not have your permission to?

Or maybe you’re still trying to figure out what you’d wrote and then it hit you, forcing you to make me feel the backlash of your embarrassment. If not, then why jump on me?


But,,, it’s okay,

Ali,

I share your confusion as I was not attacking you.
Not sure where you are coming from, simply making an observation.
I always thought that as martial artists you needed a little bit of thick skin.
Never realized such innocent comments would be construed as someone "jumping" on someone else.

[Ali. R]

You’re so uptight over nothing that you can’t see that I’m having fun, or you’re just playing like you don’t see any of this while putting me in contempt over noting. And I truly don’t worry or think about anything you do or write, because it speaks in volumes all by itself, which is a good thing right?

It doesn’t make any sense to be or go personal all over noting. I understand, “sometimes uh brother got to do, what uh brother got to do”.


Take care,

[Sihing73]

You’re so uptight over nothing that you can’t see that I’m having fun, or you’re just playing like you don’t see any of this while putting me in contempt over noting. And I truly don’t worry or think about anything you do or write, because it speaks in volumes all by itself, which is a good thing right?

It doesn’t make any sense to be or go personal all over noting. I understand, “sometimes uh brother got to do, what uh brother got to do”.


Take care,

Ali,

I am so relaxed that I almost ooze out of my chair when sitting down.
Very little upsets me or gets me uptight, certainly nothing on an internet forum.