Nice clip

[JPinAZ]

Nope sorry I had lost interest... it's been a long day!

Ah... but hang on... this is interesting...

Then again I have heard all this before, because I do read your posts and many others who harp on about the same old gem... if you don't fight you aint doing Wing Chun. Test yourselves with a resisiting opponent. Enter a competition to see how good you are. Must be the average MMA dudes mantra, but I aint interested in promoting that.

BTW Who told you that Fighting/Sparring is 'doing' Wing Chun? Sounds like an old KFO member who is no longer with us here... or IS HE lol!??

I'm very interested to learn where these ideas originate... because according to one humble gent we should aim to "abstain from arguments and fights".

Ok, so you don'thave any actual answers to my questions. And it's disturbing that you don't have a clue where the ideas of testing your art come from.

Do you not know any interactive training that tests your Wing Chun defensive skill set?? One that tests your attacking skillset? One that tests both? Without any points/winner/loser???

WTF is your problem, did you hit your head or something? Isn't this the quesiton I asked you??

Anyway, I repear, yes fighting IS 'doing' wing chun, it's using it as it's intended. If I'm so wrong, please explain what is?

Ahh, don't worry, you will ignore this quesiton too, since you're clearly not interested in logical debate or giving a counter view - just crying like a baby on how wrong 'we' are for looking to improve our skills outside of the safty of in-kwoon chi sau battles. I'm just glad I don't have some secret ancient code that forbids it

[guy b.]

I think those critics are not criticizing the videos so much as they are they are the repeated claims that go along with the videos.

You mean when I claim it's a "nice clip"?

What good wing chun looks like is like asking what does good art look like. The test of the quality of some one's wing chun just like with boxing or bjj or anything else is not what it looks like but what they can do with it.

People criticizing the clips, i.e. claiming they are not good wing chun, need to provide evidence of what good wing chun looks like. If that involves fighting and winning in competitions using wing chun then that is what they should post.

[guy b.]

good clips would be those that (gasp) involve fighting an opponent from another system

Then post some you like. Why is this such an ordeal?

[guy b.]

What good wing chun looks like is like asking what does good art look like. The test of the quality of some one's wing chun just like with boxing or bjj or anything else is not what it looks like but what they can do with it.

Winning sports competitions is not the main goal of most people training in wing chun. Why then test wing chun in competitions?

[tc101]

People criticizing the clips, i.e. claiming they are not good wing chun, need to provide evidence of what good wing chun looks like. If that involves fighting and winning in competitions using wing chun then that is what they should post.

This is where I believe your question has a flaw because good wing chun does not look a certain way and good/bad are relative terms. It is not the appearance that you should be looking at but it is the performance you should be looking at. The question should be at what level can the wing chun person perform and by that I mean use their wing chun skills successfully against an actual opponent.

[guy b.]

And here is one a classic example of why others view wing chun the way they do: pretentious stuck up, head in the cloud thinking

Why are you so concerned about what some other people think of some different other people's wing chun practice?

[tc101]

Winning sports competitions is not the main goal of most people training in wing chun. Why then test wing chun in competitions?

You do not need to test your skills in organized competition it is just that organized competition involves performance or using your skills against an opponent. How can we test how well we can use our skills against an opponent except by doing it? Competition is one way to see what our performance level is.

[BPWT]

Seriously, this back-and-forth is still going on after 21 pages?

[tc101]

BINGO! You got it in one (except that this is NOT my code lol!)... maybe you will apply the same sense of drama to your story about Ip Man in competitions and all those hardy rooftop fights

I think we are on different pages... and you are beginning to sound a bit familiar to me. Boring even... but it's been nice trying to chat and good luck with your research!

I am sorry to bore you and I am sure that I am not unique in my views. Yes we are on diferent pages as you say but I was trying to understand your view since it did not make sense to me. Thank you for taking the time to explain. Please understand I do not care if you compete or not or spar or not or how you want to practice or teach wing chun. These are always up to the individual and we are all entitled to our views and I believe we should respect each other's right to have them.

One thing I keep seeing on this forum is the I am right and everyone else is wrong kind of argument and that is what I picked up from what you said and what I was responding to. If I was mistaken then I am sorry.

[guy b.]

This is where I believe your question has a flaw because good wing chun does not look a certain way and good/bad are relative terms. It is not the appearance that you should be looking at but it is the performance you should be looking at. The question should be at what level can the wing chun person perform and by that I mean use their wing chun skills successfully against an actual opponent.

It is absurd to argue that wing chun doesn't and shouldn't look any particular way. The way it looks is defined by the principles that underlie it.

However taking this argument at face value for the sake of discussion results in the following:

1. If wing chun can look any old way then people shouldn't criticize the clips based upon what they look like (which they do)

2. clips should be posted that show good results as examples of good wing chun

[guy b.]

You do not need to test your skills in organized competition it is just that organized competition involves performance or using your skills against an opponent. How can we test how well we can use our skills against an opponent except by doing it? Competition is one way to see what our performance level is.

Engaging in competition shows your performance level in competition. Most people are not concerned with competiton so why would competition be of interest?

[jesper]

Engaging in competition shows your performance level in competition. Most people are not concerned with competiton so why would competition be of interest?

So why exactly cant you participate in a MMA competition. dont think there are any rules except the downward elbow that doesnt apply to a barfight fx
Or are you saying that if some guy in a bar is taking a swing at you, you will rip out his eyes with your deadly fingertouch or something.

To say you dont want to participate because its not your thing is absolutely fair enough. I dont do competition myself mainly because I prefer to do my skill testing privately, but kidding yourself and thinking its because WC cant be used in that type of enviroment is stupid.

[LoneTiger108]

Ok, so you don'thave any actual answers to my questions. And it's disturbing that you don't have a clue where the ideas of testing your art come from.

And so you also can not answer my question? I have my speculative answer but wanted to know your view as you must be closer to the source, y'know?

And after I ask you THIS...

"Do you not know any interactive training that tests your Wing Chun defensive skill set?? One that tests your attacking skillset? One that tests both? Without any points/winner/loser???"

You reply with this...

WTF is your problem, did you hit your head or something? Isn't this the quesiton I asked you??

No it isn't. You asked this...

So, does your codes of conduct and school creeds allow you to test your art in ANY fashion with people outside the school besides going out and getting into street fights? Or do only 'athletes' test their art?

And this...

please tell me how YOU test your art against others from other styles that gets any closer to actual fighting?

AND THIS...

So, how do you test your skills for an actual encounter if you don't spar and oppose testing outside the school?

And finally you throw in this lol!

Anyway, I repear, yes fighting IS 'doing' wing chun, it's using it as it's intended. If I'm so wrong, please explain what is?

Now can you see the general tone of your posts and the meaning of your questions in comparison to mine? What I see is that you are more concerned with challenging other styles and the win/losing battle rather than, what I call "interactive training". None of what I am referring to is 'the fight' because in a 'fight' I will adopt a different mentality and will onto the opponent, and this is because I am not thinking about my development or helping them gain more skill, I am thinking of destroying anything aneverything that is put in front of me and taking them out of action entirely.

Does this help explain my position on using the English langaue in a more accurate way. THIS is why the word 'fight' is highlighted by Ip Man as being something NOT to pursue. It's never nice to hurt anyone. And if you do enjoy that's your perogative, just nothing to do with what I do that's all.

crying like a baby on how wrong 'we' are for looking to improve our skills outside of the safty of in-kwoon chi sau battles. I'm just glad I don't have some secret ancient code that forbids it

Waaaaahhhhh!

Does that make you feel better? And I am the one who is supposed to be arrogant and unable to participate in debate??? The one slyly putting others down with my sarky comments??? Take a long look at yourself my friend because it aint me crying... it is you after you don't get any answers to your silly questions!

Grow up and move on dude, and possible learn some ethical code of conduct before you go around teaching people how to really hurt themselves...

[LoneTiger108]

Winning sports competitions is not the main goal of most people training in wing chun. Why then test wing chun in competitions?

Oh far too much common sense in this post I am speechless...

[LoneTiger108]

You do not need to test your skills in organized competition it is just that organized competition involves performance or using your skills against an opponent. How can we test how well we can use our skills against an opponent except by doing it? Competition is one way to see what our performance level is.

And here is THE answer????

Define your understanding of Wing Chun 'Performance Level'?

What guyb is saying, I can only presume, is that there are a lot of us out there that, let's just say, drill our first jik gerk (that's straight/direct foot for those that don't know) kick against the wooden man around the knee area, preferably the inside of the knee joint itself. This is Wing Chun 101. Attacking the closest target with our longest weapon for destructive and end-game effect.

So you know of a competition that allows this intent?

Even in some Sanda comps I have been around, multiple strikes to the face were not allowed, nor handling the throat! Errr... another Wing Chun signature is linking punching rapidly into threes and takedowns from the neck and throat!

Can you see what I am saying?

ANY competition requires adjustments, not only to our main focus and purpose of maiming opponenents, but it also compromises our very fundamental training that we like to drill and drill until it becomes second nature. In that respect I think anyone with half a brain will KNOW if they can handle themselves in a scrap, and even then the good guys will always try and not injure anyone too seriously

And that simply just doesn't make sense to me at all.