Nice clip

[Wayfaring]

It means that he was able to hit with his arm still bend. Stretching it proves to the striker that he was close enough to strike with power. Secondly, it is a gentle way of showing the opponent that he shouldn't think that he was able to 'take' or ignore the hit and counterstrike. Often, in the emtion of a fight, people tend to overlook that they were hit and still try to hit, although this would not have been possible in a real situation. Having your head pushed back stops you from thinking that you can counterhit. This applies for straight punches aswell as hooks.

And this is the #1 misconception I see among WCK practitioners. Complete hogwash. In real live fighting, people 'take' hits and counterstrike all the time.

"A gentle way of showing the opponent that he shouldn't think that he was able to take or ignore the hit and counterstrike."

"Often, in the emotion of a fight, people tend to overlook that they were hit and still try to hit, although this would not have been possible in a real situation."

You seriously can't make stuff like this up. It is comedy gold.

[k gledhill]

And this is the #1 misconception I see among WCK practitioners. Complete hogwash. In real live fighting, people 'take' hits and counterstrike all the time.

"A gentle way of showing the opponent that he shouldn't think that he was able to take or ignore the hit and counterstrike."

"Often, in the emotion of a fight, people tend to overlook that they were hit and still try to hit, although this would not have been possible in a real situation."

You seriously can't make stuff like this up. It is comedy gold.

Trading punches, yes, but we train not to. Notice that Jerry is parrying a counter hit and hitting at the same time. An aspect all the professional boxing coaches here at Gleasons like about vt.

[Jansingsang]

Anything specific you are wanting to point out in this 44 minute video? The sparring I saw at 24:00 - 28:00 pretty much looks like two newborn deer fawns on the same day they are born trying to stand up with balance.

Ok should have been more specific as it's a long a$$ video Jerry & Philip Ng get too work at 23.36 mark Not how ill deal with it but Test what you have all the same

[Robadob]

Oh I agree on taking the hit and counterstrike allright. If a monkey man takes your best hit and still can counterstrike the best option is to run for it.
Can you, however tell us how to train for a hit to the throat or a thumb in the eye? Pretty sure the Krav Maga boys are also interested.

[Wayfaring]

I have used in real fights, results produce heavy stun / concussion. A thumb in eye is standard procedure with us. Striking I agree I also coach students not to press the open hand or it tends to stay on as a bad habit. Better to punch and hit again....

And you probably train actually punching people too.

I'm not arguing against the open hand in a bareknuckle fight. For straight ahead punches to the head it's preferable actually. Fists for softer areas of attack.

I'm highlighting the epidemic in WCK training of:

1. Not knowing the difference between live training and dead training, and the whys for each. Thus not practicing skills in anywhere near the format they are useful in real fighting.
2. Stupid compliant drills that have no common-sense place in the development of real fighting skills. This includes doggedly sticking to these for tradition's sake in the face of hard evidence. What is a drill supposed to develop? What do you give up to isolate the drill? How can you integrate that in to being more alive?

I have seen far too many clips of people training chi sau in exactly that compliant face-push method, that when the aggressive nature of a live fight ensues they experience fight or flight, an adrenaline dump, and you see them charging in with their head static in one position push-punching a rapid series of chain punches. They usually get dropped by a hook.

You think what I'm talking about isn't real? Here's an example from Hong Kong:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5AKFNCIJdvA

and here's a thread of MMA fighters and practitioners talking about it, under the title "Wing Chun vs. Boxing = folded lawnchair (vid):

http://www.mixedmartialarts.com/mma....&page=1&pc=253

Oh, should I say "nice clip" ?????

[k gledhill]

And you probably train actually punching people too.

I'm not arguing against the open hand in a bareknuckle fight. For straight ahead punches to the head it's preferable actually. Fists for softer areas of attack.

I'm highlighting the epidemic in WCK training of:

1. Not knowing the difference between live training and dead training, and the whys for each. Thus not practicing skills in anywhere near the format they are useful in real fighting.
2. Stupid compliant drills that have no common-sense place in the development of real fighting skills. This includes doggedly sticking to these for tradition's sake in the face of hard evidence. What is a drill supposed to develop? What do you give up to isolate the drill? How can you integrate that in to being more alive?

I have seen far too many clips of people training chi sau in exactly that compliant face-push method, that when the aggressive nature of a live fight ensues they experience fight or flight, an adrenaline dump, and you see them charging in with their head static in one position push-punching a rapid series of chain punches. They usually get dropped by a hook.

You think what I'm talking about isn't real? Here's an example from Honk Kong:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5AKFNCIJdvA

and here's a thread of MMA fighters and practitioners talking about it, under the title "Wing Chun vs. Boxing = folded lawnchair (vid):

http://www.mixedmartialarts.com/mma....&page=1&pc=253

Oh, should I say "nice clip" ?????

Don't get me wrong I agree most compliant chi Sao wars are a joke. I see errors in Jerry's work too.
Just don't sweep all vt into one collective pile.

[Wayfaring]

Oh I agree on taking the hit and counterstrike allright. If a monkey man takes your best hit and still can counterstrike the best option is to run for it.
Can you, however tell us how to train for a hit to the throat or a thumb in the eye? Pretty sure the Krav Maga boys are also interested.

No offense, but you could take the advise of someone on the internet here, or you could since you live near Amsterdam ask those same questions to a pro Dutch kickboxer or in a gym where they train, who well understand live vs. static.

In a live scenario, landing these strikes is the hard part. The smaller the target area, the MORE what I'm talking about comes into play. Smaller motor movements are notoriously harder to repeat under live stress. Nothing like getting KTFO while you are dancing around setting up an eye gouge strike.

[k gledhill]

No offense, but you could take the advise of someone on the internet here, or you could since you live near Amsterdam ask those same questions to a pro Dutch kickboxer or in a gym where they train, who well understand live vs. static.

In a live scenario, landing these strikes is the hard part. The smaller the target area, the MORE what I'm talking about comes into play. Smaller motor movements are notoriously harder to repeat under live stress. Nothing like getting KTFO while you are dancing around setting up an eye gouge strike.

Ironic , the last guy I eye gouged was the mt coach.

[Wayfaring]

Don't get me wrong I agree most compliant chi Sao wars are a joke. I see errors in Jerry's work too.
Just don't sweep all vt into one collective pile.

It's the clueless that seem to be doing all the collective pile sweeping here by intermixing compliant chi sau wars with fighting skills.

[guy b.]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SxFsAaC4XK8

Most of the kung fu quest fights are in this clip

[k gledhill]

It's the clueless that seem to be doing all the collective pile sweeping here by intermixing compliant chi sau wars with fighting skills.

Many don't know how to bridge the gap ; ) from hands on drills to hands off fighting and back again. WSL main critique of the vt world was that they overindulge in hand chasing in chi Sao.
A huge majority of vt see chi Sao as the pinnacle of ability : ) the same guys can't fight without arm contact first ; )

[JPinAZ]

There you go mate you got your wish Jerry is from Wsl lineage and not afraid to use what he has attained on a trip to China enjoy


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=clgG...e_gdata_player

I think wayfaring summed it up best in his reply to this. I just don't see this as being too much different, just a little less 'cooperative', but surely not trying to hurt (pressure/resist) each other in any real sense.

[Wayfaring]

Many don't know how to bridge the gap ; ) from hands on drills to hands off fighting and back again. WSL main critique of the vt world was that they overindulge in hand chasing in chi Sao.
A huge majority of vt see chi Sao as the pinnacle of ability : ) the same guys can't fight without arm contact first ; )

I agree with WSL.

IMO chi sau is actually very versatile. To me it is like flow rolling in grappling. The goal is to improve movement, and the % involved is like 25% or so of overall sparring.

If people would just spend an equal amount of time in live sparring with no pre-arranged arm contact first that they do in chi sau, I don't think there would be this epidemic. The methods would lead to the skills - teachers and students keeping it real together. But people don't. Many teachers teach WCK by having students do forms and chi sau only. It's sad. The lineages I've had exposure to have a progression through chi sau (Moy Yat, HFY). But I would like to see a whole lot more correlation to what is going on in a chi sau drill to an aspect of real fighting, and keeping the other isolated aspects of the drill as live or real as possible.

There was one quote on that thread of the boxer knockout of the WCK guy that to me pretty much sums up what I've heard said about WCK by fighters:

wing chun only works in a wing chun match

try to use it in the boxing ring, mma cage, STREET, local gym etc... and you will see this same result 99.99% of the time.

[k gledhill]

I agree with WSL.

IMO chi sau is actually very versatile. To me it is like flow rolling in grappling. The goal is to improve movement, and the % involved is like 25% or so of overall sparring.

If people would just spend an equal amount of time in live sparring with no pre-arranged arm contact first that they do in chi sau, I don't think there would be this epidemic. The methods would lead to the skills - teachers and students keeping it real together. But people don't. Many teachers teach WCK by having students do forms and chi sau only. It's sad. The lineages I've had exposure to have a progression through chi sau (Moy Yat, HFY). But I would like to see a whole lot more correlation to what is going on in a chi sau drill to an aspect of real fighting, and keeping the other isolated aspects of the drill as live or real as possible.

Here is a good example, you think , as many do, that chi Sao is to develop sensitivity in a " flow ". No. WSL also said that " sensitivity " is a by-product of the drills goals not the goal in itself. Iow we contact arms in certain angles that intercept a partners and exchange force to build solid pinching attributes along with coordination, balanced movement an angling under " mutual " terms , meaning NOT A FIGHT.
During chi Sao web add breaks from contact to create holes or retraction of arms to train lat Sao Jik Chun. We also see that the punch is weak unless the structure supports the elbow / fist alignment.
The drills take on a whole other meaning than feeling and flowing endlessly with air tag. My response is brief but you get the idea. Many are pursuing a redundant idea that won function outside the world of the chi Sao warrior.

[Wayfaring]

Here is a good example, you think , as many do, that chi Sao is to develop sensitivity in a " flow ". No. WSL also said that " sensitivity " is a by-product of the drills goals not the goal in itself. Iow we contact arms in certain angles that intercept a partners and exchange force to build solid pinching attributes along with coordination, balanced movement an angling under " mutual " terms , meaning NOT A FIGHT.

Well at least you have a defined goal that is not chi sau for it's own sake. I think I actually said that to me its goal would be to develop movement, which is actually quite different from sensitivity.

What I see in flow rolling in grappling is that over time it helps increase hip movement, which is crucial to increased skill in grappling. In other words, people go from kind of locking down in one position very rigidly in a bull-like fashion to transitioning better between positions.

In my perspective I view chi sau as similar if trained right and balanced.

During chi Sao web add breaks from contact to create holes or retraction of arms to train lat Sao Jik Chun.

Specific scenario and skill drills. That's good. Training with a purpose.

We also see that the punch is weak unless the structure supports the elbow / fist alignment.

I don't personally see value in trying to use chi sau to train punching power. That's more the heavy bag's job to me, or maybe the dummy. But elbow position, angles, foot movement - all yes.

The drills take on a whole other meaning than feeling and flowing endlessly with air tag. My response is brief but you get the idea. Many are pursuing a redundant idea that won function outside the world of the chi Sao warrior.

I think the first step is buy an interval timer. Next, I think chi sau rounds (3-5 min timed) would be a perfect warm-up for sparring. 2 rounds chi sau at the beginning of the sparring section of class for a great light warmup, then into sparring with no pre-arranged beginning. First round light contact but speed, then normal.

Oh and for all you traditional style teachers out there - interval timers are what you use during the sparring section of class. And the sparring section of class is the section of every class where you spar. As you are trying to develop realistic fighting skills which need to be practiced in a live environment more than once a year. If you haven't added this section in to your classes yet, just go ahead and do it. If you keep contact real light during the first month or so all around, then the 120# college professors in your class won't quit, and they will actually learn to have a whole ton of fun at it, bit by bit.