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Thread: Internal and Combat

  1. #1
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    Internal and Combat

    We already have an "Internal and Health" thread. I want to start with an "Internal and Combat" thread here. Let's stay away from health, self-cultivation, inner peace, and performance, but concentrate on "combat and combat only" discussion.

    Can anybody be able to put up a clip that demonstrate the "internal" principle applied on:

    - punch (jab, cross, hook, uppercut, ...),
    - kick (front kick, roundhouse kick, side kick, hook kick, ...),
    - lock (wrist lock, elbow lock, shoulder lock, head lock, ...),
    - throw (single leg, double legs, hip throw, leg twist, ...),
    - ground skill (high mount, low mount, reverse mount, side mount, ...)?

    Let's not talking about theory in this thread but try to find some evidence that prove "internal" can help "combat".

    I know, I know, if internal can improve health, health can improve combat, internal can improve combat. That's indirect and not direct. Eating food and drinking water can improve health too. I won't say that water and food will have anything to do wth combat. Let's not to go through that path again.
    Last edited by YouKnowWho; 05-03-2013 at 06:58 PM.
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    "internal combat" came from the boxer rebellion. thats why its so crazy.
    Last edited by bawang; 05-03-2013 at 08:15 PM.

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  3. #3
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    internal combat

    Hi, awesome discussion. I think, to my understanding , this is a loaded (good) subject. many internal qigong sets have martial techniques/ applications in them although they have been promoted for health. so there could be an old person practising said qigong routine strictly for health who has never done martial art, and thus does not see the significance, and another person, who trains martial art, who can see through this. thats my thought on that.
    also, training an internal style can only help ones combat efficiency, it will get some extra rooting and body mechanics soaked in to you, different styles will have different training methods, etc (hsing yi- quan's rooting on the back leg, or ba gua's footwork for instance), thus more power. and of course the more you can relax and be present in your body, the more power you can strike with, etc. etc. sorry i have no videos to post, i'm surprised i even know how to log on to the internet, lol. just throwing my 2 cents into the subject at large.

    Thanks for engaging us,
    -Matt.

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by YouKnowWho View Post
    We already have an "Internal and Health" thread. I want to start with an "Internal and Combat" thread here. Let's stay away from health, self-cultivation, inner peace, and performance, but concentrate on "combat and combat only" discussion.

    Can anybody be able to put up a clip that demonstrate the "internal" principle applied on:

    - punch (jab, cross, hook, uppercut, ...),
    - kick (front kick, roundhouse kick, side kick, hook kick, ...),
    - lock (wrist lock, elbow lock, shoulder lock, head lock, ...),
    - throw (single leg, double legs, hip throw, leg twist, ...),
    - ground skill (high mount, low mount, reverse mount, side mount, ...)?

    Let's not talking about theory in this thread but try to find some evidence that prove "internal" can help "combat".

    I know, I know, if internal can improve health, health can improve combat, internal can improve combat. That's indirect and not direct. Eating food and drinking water can improve health too. I won't say that water and food will have anything to do wth combat. Let's not to go through that path again.
    Chen village has kept a little bit of the combat aspect of Taiji in their training. In another thread you mentioned going to Chenjiagou and challenging their top guys. I am interested to know if you have done this before. If yes I would like to know your opinion as an experienced Shuaijiao coach about the good and bad things in their combat skills.

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    Quote Originally Posted by xinyidizi View Post
    Chen village ... the good and bad things in their combat skills.
    I had been in Chen Village with Adam Hsu's group for the 1991 1st Jinan International Traditional Martial Arts tournament. We had met many Taiji guys there but they were not interest in combat.

    IMO, Chen Taiji leg skill such as cut, hook, lift, spring, twist, block, break, bite, sticky, scoop, sweep, ... , are not fully developed yet.

    Taiji guys "want to take" but "not willing to give". How can you expect a girl to say "I love you" to you if you are not willing to say, "I love you" to her first? The attitude such as "If you don't move, I won't move, ..." can cause a Taiji guy to play his opponent's game (his opponent leads the fight) which is not good.
    Last edited by YouKnowWho; 05-03-2013 at 11:26 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MarathonTmatt View Post
    it will get some extra rooting ...
    Of course the more ZZ that you do, the better static rooting that you can develop. IMO, the dynamic rooting which is much harder to develop, but much more useful can only be developed through the so called "external" training method (such as carry weigh with single leg uphill hopping).
    Last edited by YouKnowWho; 05-03-2013 at 11:48 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by PalmStriker View Post
    This is a good clip but it still has the attitude, "push your opponent back, you win, and the fight is over".

    Quote Originally Posted by PalmStriker View Post
    If we look at his students demo, it's easy to tell that they had cross training in SC. I don't mind Taiji guys cross train SC, or use SC to interpreter Taiji. But I do mind that Taiji guys don't give that credit back to the SC system (It's like a guy adds "MT flying knee" into longfist and claims it's a longfist technique). There is no way that his student could figure out how to use "high padding horse" to counter "firemen's carry" within the boundary of the Taiji system.
    Last edited by YouKnowWho; 05-03-2013 at 11:56 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by YouKnowWho View Post
    Of course the more ZZ that you do, the better static rooting that you can develop. IMO, the dynamic rooting which is much harder to develop, but much more useful can only be developed through the so called "external" training method (such as carry weigh with single leg uphill hopping).

    they lift weights behind closed doors.

    Quote Originally Posted by MarathonTmatt View Post
    Hi, awesome discussion. I think, to my understanding , this is a loaded (good) subject. many internal qigong sets have martial techniques/ applications in them although they have been promoted for health. so there could be an old person practising said qigong routine strictly for health who has never done martial art, and thus does not see the significance, and another person, who trains martial art, who can see through this. thats my thought on that.
    also, training an internal style can only help ones combat efficiency, it will get some extra rooting and body mechanics soaked in to you, different styles will have different training methods, etc (hsing yi- quan's rooting on the back leg, or ba gua's footwork for instance), thus more power. and of course the more you can relax and be present in your body, the more power you can strike with, etc. etc. sorry i have no videos to post, i'm surprised i even know how to log on to the internet, lol. just throwing my 2 cents into the subject at large.

    Thanks for engaging us,
    -Matt.
    no.
    Last edited by bawang; 05-04-2013 at 12:09 AM.

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  11. #11
    Chen Taiji has a well developed combat training which doesn't involve pushing people around or waiting for your opponent to move first as it's stupid. They sometimes teach bits of it to outsiders but it's rare as they can make enough money by teaching them taolu, basic PH and sometimes their version shuaijiao if they pay more.

    With heavy restrictions that they have had in China there was no way to have the original combat training of these arts in competitions and if they did nothing they couldn't call themselves martial arts that's why in the 90's Chen people adopted the sport SC format and techniques and in the last few years they gradually started to integrate sanda format and techniques as well. Xinyi/Xingyi people also had to change themselves and adapt to the new rules. The only choice that TCMA has today is SC/Kickboxing with TCMA flavor to become functional as a sport.
    Last edited by xinyidizi; 05-04-2013 at 04:23 AM.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by bawang View Post
    they lift weights behind closed doors.


    no.
    They are very open about lifting weights. Go to Chen Xiaoxing, Wang Xian,... schools.

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    Quote Originally Posted by xinyidizi View Post
    They are very open about lifting weights. Go to Chen Xiaoxing, Wang Xian,... schools.
    if internal people arent scared of big slow muscles clogging up their qi we wouldnt have this conversation.

    Quote Originally Posted by xinyidizi View Post

    With heavy restrictions that they have had in China there was no way to have the original combat training of these arts in competitions
    chen xiaowangs dad got executed over a horse. hes never gonna show anyting worthwhile to anyone outside chen village.
    Last edited by bawang; 05-04-2013 at 12:46 AM.

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  14. #14
    if internal people arent scared of big slow muscles clogging up their qi we wouldnt have this conversation.
    All these years in China with Chen guys and XY guys. I haven't heard of that before. Although some say it's better to train with heavy weapons instead.

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    Quote Originally Posted by xinyidizi View Post
    All these years in China with Chen guys and XY guys. I haven't heard of that before. Although some say it's better to train with heavy weapons instead.
    dont play dumb.

    Honorary African American
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