Internal and Combat

[YouKnowWho]

"train to kill your enemies - but choose your enemies very carefully".

I love those clips that you put up. Thanks for sharing.

Just last week I asked a Chen Taiji instructor, "How will you use your Chen Taiji to kill?" We had very pleasant 2 hours discussion. To me, if one doesn't train "finish moves", he is not training TCMA. You just can't yield your opponent to death.

Dead horse....It's dead I tell you stop beating it....

If we drag "health" into this thread, you may be right. We try to collect evidence in this thread. We try not to argue in theory.

Miqi has put up some "internal" guys works on heavy bag clips that I have never seen before.

[bawang]

If we drag "health" into this thread, you may be right. We try to collect evidence in this thread. We try not to argue in theory.

Miqi has put up some "internal" guys works on heavy bag clips that I have never seen before.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4CSP3WR9duw

its the way internal sells itself and the people it attracts thats the problem

[YouKnowWho]

or bored to death ?

If I don't start thread, I may even join in the "1850" discussion.

Since my health is great, I emphasize combat practice and I don't emphasize health training at this point in my life.

[YouKnowWho]

when you teach your student to never fight, you can never get challenged.

But to get challenge is good. you get chance to test your skill. The day that you die, your challenge fights may be the only memory that will go through your head before you exhale your last drop of your breath.

[YouKnowWho]

Still too concerned with making it look like his style, with it being "internal" and missing some basic points...

They still have too much "style bourdry in their head". Have you noticed that foot sweep is not used in all Taiji push hands? May be they think the "foot sweep" is too "external".

[bawang]

But to get challenge is good. you get chance to test your skill. The day that you die, your challenge fights may be the only memory that will go through your head before you exhale your last drop of your breath.

in the video i showed, do you think those people are fit for any kind of combat?

"internal arts" attracts psychotics and human garbage. crazy sh1t attracts crazy people.

[Mike Patterson]

This forum reminds me more and more of the cliche' of a soap opera.. step away for months at a time, come back and the story is still unchanged.

Once again, here are six full fights of people, albeit AMATEUR people, trained solely in Xingyi, Bagua and Chen Taiji by yours truly utilizing the concepts and methods in a resistant full contact venue.

There are no silly style boundaries, missing sweeps, throws, etc. in their performances, just good clean fighting from a traditional Internal Martial Arts background.

I mean, what do you expext when you talk about "internal" ... magical chi blasts or something? Internal martial arts are about the same thing any other martial art is about... learning how to apply the skillsets learned in life, be it combat on the leitai, in the street, or yes, against an unseen creeping disease.. hence the health emphasis in these systems in addition to combative training and discipline.

Most contemporary people have simply lost their roots. That does not invalidate the methodology.. it merely invalidates those that have lost their way.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dLq6FXvgtRE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z47UfJd3g0k
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dEMus0p-_N8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7a4H_iMoEAE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yviiLACfjK8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CikExyDNPRQ

Now, for me.. back to what is important... training.

[xinyidizi]

They still have too much "style bourdry in their head". Have you noticed that foot sweep is not used in all Taiji push hands? May be they think the "foot sweep" is too "external".

I don't understand, foot sweep is not that uncommon in Taiji. Are you talking about a specific kind of foot sweep?

[SavvySavage]

Do you know the guys?

The activity they were doing in the clip is self explanatory so it doesn't matter who they are.

[YouKnowWho]

I don't understand, foot sweep is not that uncommon in Taiji. Are you talking about a specific kind of foot sweep?

The foot sweep is simple. To push the head down (or shoulder) and to sweep the leg off the ground at the same time (2 points contact). I haven't seen any push hands clip that has foot sweep. Old saying said, "If you are good in foot sweep, you should be able to take care 80% of your opponent". Since your opponent has to step in and put weight on his leading leg to punch you, the opportunity for foot sweep is always there.

http://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=...ail&FORM=VIRE1

[YouKnowWho]

Internal martial arts are about the same thing any other martial art is about... learning how to apply the skillsets learned in life, be it combat on the leitai, in the street, or ...

Those clips are exactly what we want to see, not just theory or health benefit.

[Robinhood]

The foot sweep is simple. To push the head down (or shoulder) and to sweep the leg off the ground at the same time (2 points contact). I haven't seen any push hands clip that has foot sweep. Old saying said, "If you are good in foot sweep, you should be able to take care 80% of your opponent". Since your opponent has to step in and put weight on his leading leg to punch you, the opportunity for foot sweep is always there.

http://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=...ail&FORM=VIRE1

Not everyone puts weight on their front leg when striking.

[MarathonTmatt]

Here is the announcement of a recent seminar I went to last december:
"Special Workshop
Qin Na Techniques and Practical Use
Presented by Master Gu Xin Fa, retired Chinese Military trainer and Police Academy coach.
He lives in Tianjin, China now has short visit in USA - Master Gu Xin Fa has taught Qin Na, Tai Chi, Qi Gong, and other skills used in catching criminals over his long career in military and police training.
He will present a special routine for practicing Qin Na, and Qin Na techniques and teach students how use Qin Na skill for practical use. Students will practice with partners.
Students will learn new skills for effective fighting, deflecting, and winning in a fighting situation.
Date: December 15, 2012: 11:00 A.M. to 5:00 P.M.
Location: Chinese Medicine for Health, 1564A Washington St. Holliston, MA"

Ok, he taught us one of his forms, which at my point in my training, helped to address a few things, so I'm glad I learned it and still drill it. The chin na was useful also, especially moving out of a chin na lock. When I did some BASIC push hands with this master, he said in chinese that if i didnt change my postural alignment he would continue to take advantage of me- that to me is one of the golden nuggets I can take away from push hands- checking my postural alignments, keep rotating, etc. Definitly not the say all/ end all, especially relative to combat, but a useful training tool no doubt.
Master Gu Xin Fa was sponsored by one of my teacher's, Dr. Aihan Kuhn, a chinese doctor who also promotes qigong/ tai ji. Chinese martial art and chinese medicine grew together, havent you ever seen iron monkey?. I also train traditional longfist, Hua Quan (Glorious Boxing/ China Fist), at another school location, and consider myself a serious strudent as far as that is concerned. Yes, I started my training in 2009 so I am a newbie, but hey I am also still young/ training daily. In sparring our teachers want us using our arms/legs/ etc in sets and the philosophy is "defend, disrupt and destroy." I enjoy the kickboxing energy at times, but also using throws/ takedowns, joint locks and yes, applying some of my push hands lessons into it. The "external" stance training from this style has also helped my rooting alot.
Hmm. One time I worked in a Thai restaurant before, and have been exposed to a little muay thai, at least seen the way they work some of the techniques, by an old man who has trained muay thai since he was a boy. I have gotten a thai massage before too, and was blown away that the way a thai boxer and a thai messeuer look at the body as a system IS THE SAME. It is the same way with the chinese and their arts, or at least was (in some cases still IS) traditionally. Some of the qigong sets I have learned from Dr. Aihan include sets performing reverse punches in slow motion being pulled back into chamber, a clear with a knee raise, raising the legs into various hooking/trapping/pulling postures, etc. I tell you true those qigong techniques can be martially applied- also- how about rotating the neck and upper body to avoid, say, a spear thrust? I trained qigong/ tai ji for 1 year and a half before breaking into longfist and other styles. Essentially i consider it a good foundation, at least i am not prone to do something stupid and hurt myself in training. in one of the first hua quan classes i took a few years ago, a student (who is no longer there) tried to kick me but i hooked his leg instead, and threw him down, using a technique straight out of the qigong routine I had been training. Anyway as they say, I dont put as much emphasis on my qigong anymore, what was appropriate for me to do at one point in time does not always stay consistent- I pretty much have a few qigong moves I keep that addresses what I need, and the hua quan training (a true internal/external style) can address the rest, whether its striking power, stance work, etc. also cross training in other styles, like developing a mean "beng quan" from hsing yi quan- even if it means thats what i have to do to get a real good vertical punch- hey, i'll take it!!! I am new to this forum, I hope know one minds me ranting about what insights i've come across in my training so far. Later,
-Matt.

[xinyidizi]

The foot sweep is simple. To push the head down (or shoulder) and to sweep the leg off the ground at the same time (2 points contact). I haven't seen any push hands clip that has foot sweep. Old saying said, "If you are good in foot sweep, you should be able to take care 80% of your opponent". Since your opponent has to step in and put weight on his leading leg to punch you, the opportunity for foot sweep is always there.

http://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=...ail&FORM=VIRE1

Does this count?

http://v.ku6.com/show/1UoFfW6DiKXOzKegr7ZNIQ...html

[xinyidizi]

The activity they were doing in the clip is self explanatory so it doesn't matter who they are.

That's the point.