Ranking: academic or physical?

[sanjuro_ronin]

Most here will agree that the "black belt" is but a starting point.
In my view it was a "high school diploma".
That got me to thinking about how we view/should view rankings.
IMO, they should be both physical ( ability to do) and academic ( ability to understand AND convey).
That said, we must also be aware of physical limitations and take those into accounts.
So, I have postulated thus:
4-5 years for a Black belt- "same time to get your high school diploma
4- years to get your "bachelors degree" - 2-3rd degree BB
4 years after Bach.Deg to get your masters.
2 years after that for your doctorate.
When are you a GM?
When those you have taught reach the degree of "Master".

So, for someone to be viewed as a "master" in a MA, they would have had to spend a minimum of 12 years doing that MA and be able to not only do it but also convey what it is as well as any other person that has a "master's degree" in any other subject.

Thoughts?

[Lucas]

what if your lineage doesnt use ranking?

[sanjuro_ronin]

what if your lineage doesnt use ranking?

Every lineage does, even if "informal".
The moment one is viewed as a "teacher" or as a "master". there is ranking.

[bawang]

Every lineage does, even if "informal".
The moment one is viewed as a "teacher" or as a "master". there is ranking.

chinese ranking is dynamic. you can be demoted.

[sanjuro_ronin]

chinese ranking is dynamic. you can be demoted.

Not a bad thing at all in my opinion.

[bawang]

Not a bad thing at all in my opinion.

i also think demotion is a great idea, but in modern times the customer buys the rank and belt. the customer gets the final say. if you like it you should introduce it into your personal style.

[Lucas]

Every opportunity for advancement should also be a chance for demotion.

[David Jamieson]

Rank is relevant only to the organization in which you belong and only in context to the service of that organization.

My personal view is that in martial arts, you are either able or unable. You can either give and take or you cannot.

There is no rank amongst actual martial artists, only harmony or conflict.

With students in a school, belts merely mark how far along in the knowledge available in the system you've come. And that's it.

So a black belt in a system that is limited is not worth as much to another system that is less limited etc etc etc.

This is just my point of view.

[MasterKiller]

So, for someone to be viewed as a "master" in a MA, they would have had to spend a minimum of 12 years doing that MA

I don't think "Master" should have a time table. Some guy who trains 2 hours a week for 12 years shouldn't have the same claim to "mastery"as someone training 12 to 15 hours a week for 12 years.

Honestly, I don't care for the term "Master," anyway.

If your students want to call you that, it's fine as a show of respect. If a grown-@ss man calls himself Master, he should be punched in the taint.

[wenshu]

If a grown-@ss man calls himself Master, he should be punched in the taint.

I'd call me shifu.
I'd call me shifu so hard.

[Miqi]

Most here will agree that the "black belt" is but a starting point.
In my view it was a "high school diploma".
That got me to thinking about how we view/should view rankings.
IMO, they should be both physical ( ability to do) and academic ( ability to understand AND convey).
That said, we must also be aware of physical limitations and take those into accounts.
So, I have postulated thus:
4-5 years for a Black belt- "same time to get your high school diploma
4- years to get your "bachelors degree" - 2-3rd degree BB
4 years after Bach.Deg to get your masters.
2 years after that for your doctorate.
When are you a GM?
When those you have taught reach the degree of "Master".

So, for someone to be viewed as a "master" in a MA, they would have had to spend a minimum of 12 years doing that MA and be able to not only do it but also convey what it is as well as any other person that has a "master's degree" in any other subject.

Thoughts?

All in all, a black belt qualification is not a bad thing thesedays - it gives you something that you can use to hire rooms and get insurance; and much as it is the skill itself that is most valuable, it is a concrete credential - we shouldn't undervalue that.

In terms of your real question, I think all that matters is that you can do what is necessary physically to pass the test. No one expects a PhD student to do press ups.

I would caution against anything that encourages people to think that they could have theoretical skill (as opposed to the theoretical knowledge of a coach). Some poor soul might be encouraged to hanker after a black belt that majors in theory.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I don't think "Master" should have a time table. Some guy who trains 2 hours a week for 12 years shouldn't have the same claim to "mastery"as someone training 12 to 15 hours a week for 12 years.

Honestly, I don't care for the term "Master," anyway.

If your students want to call you that, it's fine as a show of respect. If a grown-@ss man calls himself Master, he should be punched in the taint.

Well put.
That is why many organizations of "hours of in class/instruction" as a guideline.
Which I agree with.

[Drake]

People develop and grow at different rates, and some styles take longer than others. A timeline is a terrible idea.

[Lucas]

a base 'timeline' as a general guide as to time put in, in combination with proof in the puttin' is the best imo. if u say ur a masta...proove it.

and on that note. Master of what? If we say martial anything, you better be able to fight. if it has the word martial in it and you cant fight, and fight well mind you, you are not a master of what you think you are a masta of

[Subitai]

Good observations Sanjuro...

Just some thoughts: 12yrs though?

Some say not enough

Some say never use the word "Master" because implied somewhere is that once you have something mastered...then you have nothing left to learn. Of course that's not true.

Some say, only let others call you master, thus being more humble.

Some never give you respect as a master of any sort if your NOT Asian. (Sorry for the race card)

When you say "DO IT" I suppose you mean both Forms for example AND the ability to apply them. This duality always stirs most of the TIRADES that happen on this forum.

I cannot fully answer the question of a "Time Stamp" towards being a master...just my thoughts.

About the time stamps you posted. Assuming everyone had access to the same info and also the SAME work ethic....I think there are a couple of factors that either add time or minus some:

1) Intelligence

2) God given natural talent


*** Lastly, there are people who just rest on their laurels and never really TRY to improve after they get their Black Belt.

Similar to the old Kung Fu parable:

Man 1 walks up and says to man 2: How do I know your Kung fu is good?

Man 2 says: I've been doing it for over 30 yrs

Man 1: How do I know you haven't been doing 1 yr ... for 30yrs in a row?

"O"