BJJ beginner question

[ketchup]

I am taking BJJ at a self defense (as opposed to sport) oriented school-Gracie Jiu jitsu.
It seems to me that when someone is in my guard (if I'm using the term right), when I'm on my back with my legs wrapped around their hips and their head hugged down next to mine with my right arm wrapped around their head and my left hand on their right upper arm, hugging them close, that I am very vulnerable to being bitten in this position in a streetfight- it would be very easy for the guy on top to bite my neck, shoulder, chest, etc..

Any thoughts on this? am I wrong?

[Frost]

ill take a break from harassing my favourite mod to answer you

You are not really wrong but A few questions for you:
1 you are on your back, your opponent is on top of you where would you rather have him be if not in your guard? Sat on top of you? In side control?
2 if he is in you guard would you rather he be sat up having momentum behind his strikes to your head or down low controlled by you?
3 how much does a bite to the chest or shoulder (or even neck for that matter) hurt compared to say a full force punch to the face, and elbow to the eye socket or a headbutt to the nose?
4 who is to say you are being static and simply holding, and not pulling/pushing his head with your arms, moving his hips with your lower body and moving your own head making it harder for him to bite??


The guard is the best option when you are in a bad position on your back with your opponent on top of you; it allows you to control his base and his ability to hit you by using your hips and lower body along with upper body tie ups. You can attack with submissions, some strikes but mainly it allows you to either sweep him or perform a get up, all of these things are nearly impossible to do from any other position off you back

[Wayfaring]

I am taking BJJ at a self defense (as opposed to sport) oriented school-Gracie Jiu jitsu.
It seems to me that when someone is in my guard (if I'm using the term right), when I'm on my back with my legs wrapped around their hips and their head hugged down next to mine with my right arm wrapped around their head and my left hand on their right upper arm, hugging them close, that I am very vulnerable to being bitten in this position in a streetfight- it would be very easy for the guy on top to bite my neck, shoulder, chest, etc..

Any thoughts on this? am I wrong?

Yes there is vulnerability there - but it's a tradeoff. For example, Roy Harris (BJJ black belt) teaches an effective self defense move from that position top in guard (mostly to law enforcement) that is a bite grinding the opponent's nipple area, which is sensitive. It's effective.

But a greater danger is your opponent getting posture and raining down bombs. You can bleed from a nipple bite and still finish a fight. You can't if you are unconscious.

The mitigating factors are that as you get better at the guard position in BJJ you can use your hip mobility to control your opponent's posture. Also with the Gracie Combatives you could control posture as you describe then when they initiate a bite move to the other punch block movement with feet on hips, knees in pushing them away with hips up.

Remember that part of learning the guard is learning to mess with your opponent's balance and controlling distance to your opponent. The more you develop your hip movement in the guard the more you will see this.

[ketchup]

Thanks for the responses guys. I am enjoying class and think its good stuff, I was just surprised to see such a GLARING hole/vulnerability, and in the foundational position of the art, which I understand the guard (on your back) to be. In fact, I think I would choose a punch in the face over having someone take a chunk out of my neck/shoulder/chest- I think the bite would be more damaging not only psychologically, but physically. It just seems strange that I've read about how the guard is the secret to beating a bigger/stronger opponent (from Helio, originally), just hold them there until they wear out, then choke/lock them, but meantime there's this big opening.

Guess my point is it seems like it'd be difficult to be relaxed in this position waiting for the guy to tire out knowing that at any moment he could realize that he can bite you and go ahead and take advantage of what may be his only option/out.

[omarthefish]

You don't just hold him there waiting for him to tire (he won't).

You just haven't learned how to attack from that position yet. After a while you won't be so passive down there. You'll start learning how to attack his arms, his neck and, from a self defense perspective, how to sweep him so you turn it around from him in your guard to you in mount.

Eventually, you can learn to have a very proactive guard.

[Dragonzbane76]

In fact, I think I would choose a punch in the face over having someone take a chunk out of my neck/shoulder/chest- I think the bite would be more damaging not only psychologically, but physically

really? I think I would have someone bite me preferably. A punch could possibly provide more damage and ultimately knock you out, which at that point everything else does not matter.

honestly get some practice using your hips and you will see that with practice you can control more easily. BJJ guys have some of the best guards and know how to position themselves in advantageous positions.

[Lucas]

its harder to bite than some people think too. here is a test, close your mouth, press your mouth up against your bisep, and press it well, then try to bite yourself. the first thing you will notice is how hard it is to get your own lips out of the way, and how far you have to open your mouth. if you remain active and keep the pressure on, it can be more difficult for someone to bite you than it may seem. if you are truly worried about people biting you, then a step for you to take is to learn how to deal with that, so if you are in a position where you think you are fighting a biter, you can fall back on what you have trained to try and mitigate any chances of being bitten...

if you feel yourself being bitten, rip his frakin ear off...he'll stop

[ketchup]

Omar-

I did alot of reading before starting, my understanding is that Helio Gracie's claim to fame for his art is that it allowed a smaller weaker man to beat a larger stronger one and the way it does this is through holding them in guard, where they can't really harm you, until they exhaust themselves with ineffectual attacks or they make a mistake- after either of these you would then defeat them. I think he compared it to the patient waiting of a boa constrictor, one reason why alot of his fights were without time limit and went for hours- that time was necessary for the strategy to work. His philosophy is that if you ( a bigger, stronger person) can't harm or defeat me, then that is a victory for me. My understanding is that his jiu jitsu was very yielding or passive. He was quite clear about this.

However, from my perspective, seeing this vulnerability (of being bitten) in the guard position throws a bit of a monkey wrench into all of that- if they get your neck in the right place(s) it could, potentially, be life threatening.

I suppose one could adopt a much more aggressive way of expressing the art, to which my concern would be less applicable, (and I am aware that there are lines/lineages that do practice a more aggressive form), although the Gracie school I'm attending does not, I believe, teach that (and arguably, not to start a sh-t storm it would not be jiu jitsu, in the purest/original sense of the art created/modified by Helio, which is what attracted me in the first place).

[ketchup]

Coincidentally, have been watching the film 'Gracies and the birth of vale tudo' tonight and at 34 minutes in Ryan Gracie is in a fight with a family competitor and is bitten on the ear while having the other guy in his guard in exactly the position I described above http://vimeo.com/65980525

[omarthefish]

I suppose one could adopt a much more aggressive way of expressing the art, to which my concern would be less applicable, (and I am aware that there are lines/lineages that do practice a more aggressive form), although the Gracie school I'm attending does not, I believe, teach that (and arguably, not to start a sh-t storm it would not be jiu jitsu, in the purest/original sense of the art created/modified by Helio, which is what attracted me in the first place).

I didn't say "aggressive". I said "proactive". Completely different ideas.

Your description sounds like you are doing the bottom guy version of the "lay n' pray".

If the guy on top has got his head down next to yours and you are holding him in tight, that's basically what it's called except usually it's something the top guy does to avoid getting submitted. I'm not any kind of BJJ expert so I don't like getting too deep into this tactically. I've only dabbled. But basically, you are not restricted to holding him in tight like that. You can also push him away (with your hips mainly).

Holding him in tight prevents punching but makes it harder to sweep or armlock or triangle. Creating space lets you attack his arms (and prevents him from biting you) but then it gives him more room for ground and pound. OTOH, as soon as he starts punching you from your guard, he's also more vulnerable to being swept or armbarred etc. Point is, good players mix it up a bit. Sometimes they close it tight; sometimes they create space. And then there's lateral movement too. Good guard players can still play defensive games while being extremely active.

[Frost]

Thanks for the responses guys. I am enjoying class and think its good stuff, I was just surprised to see such a GLARING hole/vulnerability, and in the foundational position of the art, which I understand the guard (on your back) to be. In fact, I think I would choose a punch in the face over having someone take a chunk out of my neck/shoulder/chest- I think the bite would be more damaging not only psychologically, but physically. It just seems strange that I've read about how the guard is the secret to beating a bigger/stronger opponent (from Helio, originally), just hold them there until they wear out, then choke/lock them, but meantime there's this big opening.

Guess my point is it seems like it'd be difficult to be relaxed in this position waiting for the guy to tire out knowing that at any moment he could realize that he can bite you and go ahead and take advantage of what may be his only option/out.

you really need to train more
1 its not the foundational position its 1 of 4 key positions the other three are on top, go figure that
2 go watch the gracie in action series most fights start with them initiating the takedown getting mount and beating the guy senseless as i have said before the guard is the best position to be in in the worst spot you can be in, on your back
no one really advocates jumpin guard in a street fight unless you are in real trouble
3 go let someone actually punch you whilst inside your guard and then come back and make this statement

[Frost]

Coincidentally, have been watching the film 'Gracies and the birth of vale tudo' tonight and at 34 minutes in Ryan Gracie is in a fight with a family competitor and is bitten on the ear while having the other guy in his guard in exactly the position I described above http://vimeo.com/65980525

actually ryan did the biting whilst mounted on top of the other guy, like i aid you really need to actually just train

did you watch the rest of the film where they were practising their takedowns, getting mount and beating people up from there?? how helio was fighting guys 50 pounds and above bigger, the guard was kind of important to him lol but he would still prefer to be on top hence training throws and the other 3 hey positions

[omarthefish]

you really need to train more
1 its not the foundational position its 1 of 4 key positions the other three are on top, go figure that ...

For MMA or self-defense, sure, but you gotta admit, in competitive sport BJJ, it's pretty common these days to even see matches where both competitors sit on their buts and scoot around trying to drag the other guy into their guard.

I am well aware that most of the "old guard" complain about it and say it's lousy Jujitsu but that doesn't mean it isn't a big part of the game recently.

[Frost]

For MMA or self-defense, sure, but you gotta admit, in competitive sport BJJ, it's pretty common these days to even see matches where both competitors sit on their buts and scoot around trying to drag the other guy into their guard.

I am well aware that most of the "old guard" complain about it and say it's lousy Jujitsu but that doesn't mean it isn't a big part of the game recently.

its even more common to see them tie up and tie to throw each other and land in one of the other three key positions

But i agree in BJJ you do see the butt scoot thats for sure, but for self defense (which this guy is after) its not the foundational positional, hell even in BJJ you still place equal time on top positions even if your school does like to scoot

[ketchup]

Frost
-yes, I need to train more. I've only taken one class, so I think that would be obvious?

1 When i wrote that its the foundational position, the guard was the alteration that Helio made to what his brother taught him that enabled a smaller guy to survive against a larger guy
2 What difference does it make who the biter was? They were both bjj guys and it was the exact position I described
3 I have been punched in the face and i have bitten, when punched I recovered quickly, the person I bit went to the hospital, and may have been a plastic surgery candidate afterwards-

While I appreciate your help, the tone of your posts has taken a sarcastic and derisive turn, unfortunately. Keep it out of your posts to me.