Connection

[Wayfaring]

So I'm a little sick of all the bong lap lamer videos around, and wanted to depart from that a little.

One topic near and dear to every WCK practitioner's heart is chi sau. Chi sau of course is about a lot of things, but one main topic that it is about is "connection".

"Connection" is a common thread through many martial arts. In judo (and aikido but that's less real) here's the concept of connection taught as "kuzushi". The clip says aikido but the guy showing it actually has a judo school and also teaches aikido.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZwnGBLSFg7s

How do the concepts here relate to WCK? Chi sau?

[k gledhill]

So I'm a little sick of all the bong lap lamer videos around, and wanted to depart from that a little.

One topic near and dear to every WCK practitioner's heart is chi sau. Chi sau of course is about a lot of things, but one main topic that it is about is "connection".

"Connection" is a common thread through many martial arts. In judo (and aikido but that's less real) here's the concept of connection taught as "kuzushi". The clip says aikido but the guy showing it actually has a judo school and also teaches aikido.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZwnGBLSFg7s

How do the concepts here relate to WCK? Chi sau?

You really are clueless .

[Wayfaring]

You really are clueless .

Then enlighten me oh great master troll.

[wingchunIan]

the clip started off really well and was interesting. Once the guy on the right started play acting I had to switch off though. As for the concept in action, I think this is similar to what HC was trying to explain about Ip Man in the clip posted on the other thread.
When doing chi sao we talk about three energetic states that are fluid and interchangeable, sung lik which is yeilding (soft), gung lik which is forwarding (hard) and mo lik which is neither (neutral). The ability to know whether you are pushing or your partner is pushing (or both) is a key attribute of sensitivity developed through chi sao along with the ability to detect through touch the direction of force being applied by the opponent / partner and respond accordingly with the best combination of structures, positioning (footwork) and energy. IMO the ability to replace the natural urge to push or pull ie to resist the force applied with a subconcious response of loy lau, hoi sung lat sao jik jung, is the key purpose of chi sao.

[Wayfaring]

the clip started off really well and was interesting. Once the guy on the right started play acting I had to switch off though. As for the concept in action, I think this is similar to what HC was trying to explain about Ip Man in the clip posted on the other thread.

Yeah the opponents were annoyingly compliant going up on their toes. I have heard reports from credible people that this guys judo school has really good flow live though in randori. (They are not known as a top competitive judo school though - full disclaimer) Without feeling the bridge energy I don't know how much they are "yellow bamboo" ing it, or if there is more legit energy. The talker is a heavy guy so there might be some more energy on the bridge than you think.

When doing chi sao we talk about three energetic states that are fluid and interchangeable, sung lik which is yeilding (soft), gung lik which is forwarding (hard) and mo lik which is neither (neutral). The ability to know whether you are pushing or your partner is pushing (or both) is a key attribute of sensitivity developed through chi sao along with the ability to detect through touch the direction of force being applied by the opponent / partner and respond accordingly with the best combination of structures, positioning (footwork) and energy. IMO the ability to replace the natural urge to push or pull ie to resist the force applied with a subconcious response of loy lau, hoi sung lat sao jik jung, is the key purpose of chi sao.

Good description. I noticed similar things which is why I posted it up.

[k gledhill]

Then enlighten me oh great master troll.

You're in good company with Ian , let him guide you oh humble one.

[Wayfaring]

You're in good company with Ian , let him guide you oh humble one.

You're really missing your calling writing fortune cookies for a living.

[Vajramusti]

So I'm a little sick of all the bong lap lamer videos around, and wanted to depart from that a little.

One topic near and dear to every WCK practitioner's heart is chi sau. Chi sau of course is about a lot of things, but one main topic that it is about is "connection".

"Connection" is a common thread through many martial arts. In judo (and aikido but that's less real) here's the concept of connection taught as "kuzushi". The clip says aikido but the guy showing it actually has a judo school and also teaches aikido.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZwnGBLSFg7s

How do the concepts here relate to WCK? Chi sau?

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Interesting video. However,
there is much more to chi sao than that version of connectivity.
Ofcourse good martial arts will have that element of awareness of balance, feeling and connectivity.

[k gledhill]

You're really missing your calling writing fortune cookies for a living.

Way faring you have a common " commercially " designed idea of chi Sao. Arm pressure with feeling and following at the hands and wrists. Until you find a competent source of undiluted information you won't understand.
I make silly replies simply because I can't rectify it by typing. ; )

[k gledhill]

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Interesting video. However,
there is much more to chi sao than that version of connectivity.
Ofcourse good martial arts will have that element of awareness of balance, feeling and connectivity.

Another " empty " reply form Joy.

[Wayfaring]

Way faring you have a common " commercially " designed idea of chi Sao. Arm pressure with feeling and following at the hands and wrists. Until you find a competent source of undiluted information you won't understand.

Actually not true. The first element of chi sau we learn in our platform is kiu sau. Nothing in the wrist involved there. Actually there is no element of chi sau that I've learned that's wrist based (well except for heun sau and entries long range).

The fact that there is another martial artist communicating ONE element - connection, that may have something in common with WCK. He happens to be doing wrist-based contact. You misread that into my complete understanding of chi sau somehow, and make stupid assumptions.

I see why you do the fortune cookie approach. You kind of suck at longer discussions.

[k gledhill]

Actually not true. The first element of chi sau we learn in our platform is kiu sau. Nothing in the wrist involved there. Actually there is no element of chi sau that I've learned that's wrist based (well except for heun sau and entries long range).

The fact that there is another martial artist communicating ONE element - connection, that may have something in common with WCK. He happens to be doing wrist-based contact. You misread that into my complete understanding of chi sau somehow, and make stupid assumptions.

I see why you do the fortune cookie approach. You kind of suck at longer discussions.

Well, er, by , YOUR, assumption there is a relationship to ( your previous posts ) wrestling, judo... I presume you're misinformed. Trying to perpetuate a conversation as YOU have about connectivity shows your lack of understanding.

[Wayfaring]

Interesting video. However,
there is much more to chi sao than that version of connectivity.
Ofcourse good martial arts will have that element of awareness of balance, feeling and connectivity.

more to chi sau = probably universally agreed

I guess to me the main thing I related to was the pressure/release on the bridge and the use of that to manipulate balance. I was familiar with that in chi sau, but hadn't connected it to kuzushi in judo.

I also was playing around in the takedown portion of grappling class the other day - was walking in parallel stance and doing the old 2 hand chi sau to initiate grip fighting. That was funny - it threw a lot of people off and I was getting to take the back off it a lot. I'll probably keep doing that until someone starts owning me so I can see where the holes are.

Anyway I'm rambling but the combo of the video concept plus messing around with things live sparked my posting it up. It may result in some good convo. Or not.

[Wayfaring]

Well, er, by , YOUR, assumption there is a relationship to ( your previous posts ) wrestling, judo... I presume you're misinformed. Trying to perpetuate a conversation as YOU have about connectivity shows your lack of understanding.

The only common factor there is I do all 3 of those things. And I search for universal principles. In doing so I try to keep it real so that it has some basis.

Sure I have plenty of lack of understanding about connectivity. It's one of those universal things I keep kicking around all the time. I feel like if I could just get a better handle on it I could do so much more. But I'm sure there's aspects of it that I understand that you are absolutely clueless about. Actually I see that.

I kind of view connectivity like that Albert Einstein quote about mathematics. "don't worry about your problems with mathematics. I assure you mine are greater." not saying I'm the Einstein of connectivity - just that my problems are very large scale on it. I'm trying to find what works across universal arts including grappling based and striking.

[k gledhill]

The only common factor there is I do all 3 of those things. And I search for universal principles. In doing so I try to keep it real so that it has some basis.

Sure I have plenty of lack of understanding about connectivity. It's one of those universal things I keep kicking around all the time. I feel like if I could just get a better handle on it I could do so much more. But I'm sure there's aspects of it that I understand that you are absolutely clueless about. Actually I see that.

I kind of view connectivity like that Albert Einstein quote about mathematics. "don't worry about your problems with mathematics. I assure you mine are greater." not saying I'm the Einstein of connectivity - just that my problems are very large scale on it. I'm trying to find what works across universal arts including grappling based and striking.

Chi Sao probably the most misunderstood drill in ma.