Connection

[JPinAZ]

I feel sorry for you being so ignorant of a yet another system.

Think about the rules regarding sweeps and apply to Telles "guard". The competition rules police the principles of bjj.

Jeebus, will you just shut it already troll boy? you obviously have no clue what you're talking about.

Wayfaring, what's your rank in BJJ again? Never mind, he'd just troll anything you say anyway

[JPinAZ]

You know what you have a fair point. I get what your saying in terms of keeping the core values the same etc.. I guess i can no longer say im a wing chun man then

Just curious, why not? What do you do that violates WC principle?

I use the concepts but also use other ideas to express them. Funny enough you can find alot of systems share similar ideas. Even as far as BJJ and the use of triangles. For me wing chun has proven to be a great spring board but i feel i need to evolve as a "martial artist" so now wing chun is my slave not the other way round.

Of course, a lot of systems have similarities. This is because principles are universal.
But back to my point, 'evolving as a martial artist' is separate from the system itself. the whole point of practicing MA's is to evolve your skills in fighting, regardless the approach yeah?

And when you say you use concepts but other ideas to express them, not sure how you mean. By other ideas, are you referring to techniques?

[guy b.]

Jeebus, will you just shut it already troll boy? you obviously have no clue what you're talking about.

Wayfaring, what's your rank in BJJ again? Never mind, he'd just troll anything you say anyway

great argument

[Wayfaring]

I feel sorry for you being so ignorant of a yet another system.

Think about the rules regarding sweeps and apply to Telles "guard". The competition rules police the principles of bjj.

OK troll boy. I'm thinking about the rules regarding sweeps. And Telles guard. And competition rules. And how Telles may have contributed to what is it you say "the devolution of BJJ".

After doing this I still have no idea WTF you are going on about.

So let's start here:

1) What do you know about Eduardo Telles ? Background, etc.
2) What is Telles best known for in the BJJ world?
3) How did he develop it?
4) What principles is he breaking with it?
5) What competition rules consequences are there?

Since you are feeling sorry for me about my BJJ ignorance, please enlighten me on this topic.

[guy b.]

OK troll boy. I'm thinking about the rules regarding sweeps. And Telles guard. And competition rules. And how Telles may have contributed to what is it you say "the devolution of BJJ".

After doing this I still have no idea WTF you are going on about.

So let's start here:

1) What do you know about Eduardo Telles ? Background, etc.
2) What is Telles best known for in the BJJ world?
3) How did he develop it?
4) What principles is he breaking with it?
5) What competition rules consequences are there?

Since you are feeling sorry for me about my BJJ ignorance, please enlighten me on this topic.

Lol at your continuing ignorance after I spelled it out for you. Do you even train bjj?

[Robinhood]

So I'm a little sick of all the bong lap lamer videos around, and wanted to depart from that a little.

One topic near and dear to every WCK practitioner's heart is chi sau. Chi sau of course is about a lot of things, but one main topic that it is about is "connection".

"Connection" is a common thread through many martial arts. In judo (and aikido but that's less real) here's the concept of connection taught as "kuzushi". The clip says aikido but the guy showing it actually has a judo school and also teaches aikido.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZwnGBLSFg7s

How do the concepts here relate to WCK? Chi sau?

Good description of sensitivity and internal fly wheel analogy.

If you want to compare to wc chi sau, chi sau is a structured exercise that should help you in a simple way to develop yourself to someday be sensitive and natural in application of self.

Chi sau is not the end, but a beginning stage of sensitivity training, how you use it and progress from it is just a different level of the development stage.

Chi sau is no more than a beginners exercise to sensitivity development, don't dwell on it., it is just a basic learning stage exercise.

[chaotic2k]

Just curious, why not? What do you do that violates WC principle?

If i wanna bang a nail in a wall, i dont start the action until im close enough to the wall etc. There is a time and place.

I use what works and when you understand the concepts in Wing chun you find you can get away with anything and "claim to be using WC". This would in turn make mike tyson a wing chun fighter... Doesnt fit does it.



Of course, a lot of systems have similarities. This is because principles are universal.
But back to my point, 'evolving as a martial artist' is separate from the system itself. the whole point of practicing MA's is to evolve your skills in fighting, regardless the approach yeah?

Correct.


And when you say you use concepts but other ideas to express them, not sure how you mean. By other ideas, are you referring to techniques?

Boxing hook with connection of wing chun as example. (1st setion of chum kiu, spring on my toes and shoulder tight to chin. elbow connected to waist 1st sec Siu leem tau, forward force still searching from my centre of mass, ability to bob n weave and shoot and sprawl. sinking and springing) all in one technuiqe. very simple but a combo of ideas and styles but WC is there o yes it is

[Wayfaring]

Lol at your continuing ignorance after I spelled it out for you. Do you even train bjj?

So you don't know the answers to those questions. That's pretty obvious to everyone now.

[wingchunIan]

Apply simple statistics and common sense. What conclusion do you reach?

Main conclusion I draw is that when your point is completely disproven you don't have the grace to acknowledge it.

[guy b.]

Main conclusion I draw is that when your point is completely disproven you don't have the grace to acknowledge it.

No need to be petty. Are you arguing that wrestling is a better approach to groundfighting than bjj?

[anerlich]

Think about the rules regarding sweeps and apply to Telles "guard". The competition rules police the principles of bjj.

As a first stripe brown belt and BJJ referee of five years experience, I can confidently state that you are talking out of your a$$.

Telles regards the turtle position as a guard, in so far as he has reversals and submissions from there, and he refers to some of those reversals as "sweeps", though the BJJ rules do not regard the turtle as a guard and would not give sweep points for what he does from there to put the opponent on their back.

To say that this is "devolutionary" is whackjob stuff. BJJ is about constantly improving position, leading to a submission. Reversing someone from turtle from underneath is positional improvement. Nothing radical or devolutionary in that.

In training or defense, successfully employing Telles' stuff will definitely improve your situation and chances of getting a tap (training) or surviving (defense).

The rules have a lot of weird stuff in them, Their "policing the principles of BJJ" has led to the prevalent long and boring 10 minute battles from 50/50 guard in high level competition and the recent widely publicised Cornelius/Miyao double DQ. Me and most BJJ guys I know think that BJJ can do without those particular principles getting policed. Last comp I reffed at had white belts trying berimbolos. I like the Berimbolo, but I prefer to try to emulate guys that stick to solid basics like Roger Gracie.

No need to be petty. Are you arguing that wrestling is a better approach to groundfighting than bjj?

Pots and kettles with the pettiness. He was actually arguing that you don't know what you are on about, but are too proud or stupid to acknowledge it.

You will not find flexibility in thinking in bjj beyond a few whackos like Telles.

A statement with for which there is a torrent of contrary evidence.

Lol at your continuing ignorance after I spelled it out for you.

Right back at ya.

[GlennR]

I don't think anyone would argue that Telles isn't part of bjj. But he breaks the principles of the original art all of the time. He is contributing to the devolution of bjj by doing this. Same goes for wing chun.

Mate, thats [B]your[B] opinion........ be it an educated one or not

Experience of different wing chun teachers and curricula.

Thats not enough.

On the post above, anerlich comments on your bjj post, adds his credentials, and basically debunks your ideas.

Simply saying "i have experience", particularly on a forum where there is some very experienced multi-style exponents here, just doesnt cut it....

[guy b.]

On the post above, anerlich comments on your bjj post, adds his credentials, and basically debunks your ideas

lol, anerlich confirms my ideas

[guy b.]

Telles regards the turtle position as a guard, in so far as he has reversals and submissions from there, and he refers to some of those reversals as "sweeps", though the BJJ rules do not regard the turtle as a guard and would not give sweep points for what he does from there to put the opponent on their back

You seem to want me to be wrong, but you show explicitly that I am right, lol. Well at least you are honest, unlike some.

[Wayfaring]

1) What do you know about Eduardo Telles ? Background, etc.
2) What is Telles best known for in the BJJ world?
3) How did he develop it?
4) What principles is he breaking with it?
5) What competition rules consequences are there?

1) Eduardo Telles and Terere formed team TT in Brazil, a top competition team
2) Turtle guard in gi and octopus guard in nogi
3) Terere's tremendous athleticism forced him out of standard BJJ paths to develop effective techniques from inferior positions (like turtle).
4) Working from back exposed
5) His main 2 sweeps from turtle guard don't give you 2 pts for the sweep due to rules, but do advance your position from turtle to side control.

My involvement with Telles turtle guard sequences started about 6 years ago when I was a new blue belt. One tournament I got stuck in turtle for 5 min and lost a close decision never being able to advance. So I started working turtle guard options. They have provided an excellent pathway out of inferior positions for me, in more than one competition since have put me in side control, which I worked from to win. I don't use his octopus guard paths, as I do 10th planet stuff nogi from that position.

Telles innovation from an inferior position advances BJJ, not "devolves" it. He offers legitimate techniques from an inferior position.

As far as losing the 2 points off the sweep, it's really a very small issue in competitive BJJ. It certainly beats going down 4 points from your back getting taken.

Rank is 4 stripe purple belt. I ref tournaments also.

But so glad that all my ignorance of BJJ can be addressed.