Connection

[tc101]

So I'm a little sick of all the bong lap lamer videos around, and wanted to depart from that a little.

One topic near and dear to every WCK practitioner's heart is chi sau. Chi sau of course is about a lot of things, but one main topic that it is about is "connection".

"Connection" is a common thread through many martial arts. In judo (and aikido but that's less real) here's the concept of connection taught as "kuzushi". The clip says aikido but the guy showing it actually has a judo school and also teaches aikido.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZwnGBLSFg7s

How do the concepts here relate to WCK? Chi sau?

I am not from the Bayer bunch and so I am sure this is completely clueless and wrong but as I learned wing chun, the connection to your opponent is what you use to control him and to set up your strikes and chi sao is a way of learning to do that, and that this is one level of dealing with an opponent.

[tc101]

People make the mistake of correlating drill and application as the same. Iow during initial stages of chi Sao a lot of blance and pressure is focused on to ensure good arm conditioning. Without coaching the stage of correction and checking , pressuring can be mistaken as how to fight while being in contact.
Once certain errors are ironed out more progressive drills are added , but never losing the base correction of showing pressure is too much or too little. Balance can be played with and seem to become a " way of fighting " , its just a drilling exchange.
In fighting there is no attempt to seek arm pressure to do this action. You can use the errors beginners commit against opponents but not in a two handed roll with arms in parallel.
A lot of chi Sao is redundant to actual vt fighting. It is a high rep conditioning tool as well, so actions become reflex like and reduce thinking time during fast striking attacks.

I understand this is your view. It is nice to see you presenting your view instead of the usual name calling etc and it would even be nicer if your view wasn't presented as my way is the right way and everyone else is making a mistake. Why not just say this is how my group looks at it? Some people with a different view are using their mistaken wrong and confused way to win pro mma fights. I have learned that there are levels, different ways of using your art.

[wingchunIan]

The way I see it, if in a real fight I can hit my opponent then I do so. If however my strike gets stopped chi sao teaches me how to remove the obstacle or flow around it. If in the process of defending myself I intercept my opponent's strike chi sao teaches me how to utilise the contact to feel what my opponent is doing. It also teaches me to focus on the opponent's centre rather than their arms, to apply my concentration equally to both sides, when to yield to pushes or pursue pulls however momentary and unexpected and to hit whenever a hand is free. For me, its very relevant to fighting if the reason for training is kept in mind at all times.

[JPinAZ]

The way I see it, if in a real fight I can hit my opponent then I do so. If however my strike gets stopped chi sao teaches me how to remove the obstacle or flow around it. If in the process of defending myself I intercept my opponent's strike chi sao teaches me how to utilise the contact to feel what my opponent is doing. It also teaches me to focus on the opponent's centre rather than their arms, to apply my concentration equally to both sides, when to yield to pushes or pursue pulls however momentary and unexpected and to hit whenever a hand is free. For me, its very relevant to fighting if the reason for training is kept in mind at all times.

At a certian level, this is how I see it as well in application. "If no chi - hit". To me, chi sau is very much for fighting - but then, I don't just view 'chi sau' as just some rolling drill to train attributes either

Like wayfaring said, we also have very extensive Kiu Sau training for developing engagement tools & certain bridging strategies. And then there's our Chi Kiu technologies. And we also do have the typically seen Taan/Bong/Fook chi sau that most categorize as wing chun 'chi sau' which we use for squared-up duei yeng time frames - but again, it's all a lot more than just a drill and very much for fighting.

[YouKnowWho]

WC Chi Shou is like 2 Judo guys get hold on each other and start to wrestle. The training that you move in and "obtain connection" is totally missing. IMO, the training to "obtain connection" can be as important (if not more) as the Chi Shou training itself.

Why can't there is an "advanced Chi Shou" training that start from 2 separate bodies? It should not be difficult to start from a punching range. You throw a punch, your opponent blocks it, you two then start your Chi Shou after that. You may not be able to achieve connection every time. Even if you can only achieve connection 50% of the time, that's combat reality. That kind of training will have much more combat value.

[guy b.]

How do the concepts here relate to WCK? Chi sau?

I see no relation

[GlennR]

So I'm a little sick of all the bong lap lamer videos around, and wanted to depart from that a little.

One topic near and dear to every WCK practitioner's heart is chi sau. Chi sau of course is about a lot of things, but one main topic that it is about is "connection".

"Connection" is a common thread through many martial arts. In judo (and aikido but that's less real) here's the concept of connection taught as "kuzushi". The clip says aikido but the guy showing it actually has a judo school and also teaches aikido.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZwnGBLSFg7s

How do the concepts here relate to WCK? Chi sau?

I liked the clip.

Yeh, his guys were a bit scarecrowy, but i liked his ideas and concepts.

Ultmately, when you are in that close in-trapping-clinch range, regardless of whether you do a striking or grappling art, surely getting the guys COG is the key to success.

Wouldnt that be the key to WC's claim of a smaller person beating a bigger person????

[JPinAZ]

Why can't "advanced Chi Shou" training start from 2 separate bodies? It should not be difficult to start from a punching range. You throw a punch, your opponent blocks it, you two then start your Chi Shou after that. You may not be able to achieve connection every time. Even if you can only achieve connection 50% of the time, that's combat reality.

This is exactly where HFY's Kiu Sau training normally starts - no contact to contact. A good portion of our kiu sau training is about engagement on centerline (Bai Jong to Jeet Kiu for the most part). And this is typically where new students start their training because this is how most fights typically take place.
Of course our kiu sau also had technologies for bridged contact-fighting outside the box, but you have to start somewhere.

That kind of training will have much more combat value.

Agreed

[YouKnowWho]

I used to like "connection" until one day I sparred against a guy who just refused to make any connection with me. He just moved around and won't even try to block my punches. It's a very strange feeling as if I was fighting a shadow or ghost. The connection (bridging) is 2 ways street. When you can sense your opponent's intention, your opponent can also sense yours too.

IMO, the best approach is to

- make connection,
- detect your opponent's intention,
- break the connection ASAP, and
- attack.

You can use your left hand to

- grab on,
- stick on, or
- parry (bounce away)

your opponent's right arm and punch his face with your right hand. Which way is better?

[BPWT]

The training that you move in and "obtain connection" is totally missing. IMO, the training to "obtain connection" can be as important (if not more) as the Chi Shou training itself.

Why can't there is an "advanced Chi Shou" training that start from 2 separate bodies? It should not be difficult to start from a punching range. You throw a punch, your opponent blocks it, you two then start your Chi Shou after that. You may not be able to achieve connection every time. Even if you can only achieve connection 50% of the time, that's combat reality. That kind of training will have much more combat value.

In Wing Tsun the training to "obtain a connection" is present. We get to this via the Lat Sau programs and by playing freely from various different ranges, while working on what we learned in those programs.

The progression is Chi Sau training, Lat Sau training, Sparring. The whole idea of it is to get you using what you learn in Chi Sau and what you can gain from Chi Sau, but in an exchange that doesn't start from Poon Sau.

Here's a clip of some of the elements of this, as it taught by Leung Ting in Hong Kong:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iZv4qBIEuTs

Of course, what you see here is an aspect of Lat Sau work in Wing Tsun.

I never understand when people think that connecting/sticking/bridge work is not what Chi Sau is about, or that Chi Sau has no relevance in a fight. When you engage with an opponent you are either bridging (in one way or another), or you are not.

But why hit the opponent if they can hit you too?

Wing Tsun is a bridging system - a means to take the center and hit the opponent while you control the bridging (yours or theirs). The most common way to attack someone is with an attack using the arms... Chi Sau, as Hawkins Cheung was saying in the other thread, is about 'on and off', or if you like 'touch and go'.

'On and Off' is about many things, but includes timing, bridging, distance management, etc.

If all you trained was Chi Sau, you'd have problems of course. Hence the Lat Sau in the WT organization in Hong Kong. With Lat Sau you make contact, break contact, make contact again, and so on, as that's how things are when you go at it.

The Lat Sau helps you do two things.

1. Start from non-contact

2. Understand how you can use what you learn in Chi Sau as soon as contact is made - however brief it may be.

Essentially, you want to bridge, as bridging is less risky that what you might have otherwise - trading blows and hoping you are faster and have heavier hitting power.

[BPWT]

To add, the clip is obviously an example of working Lat Sau from a fairly close range.

We also train this exchange (from no contact) from greater and varying distances. Sometimes starting from kicking range, sometimes from a 'step and punch' range, etc.

[wingchunIan]

WC Chi Shou is like 2 Judo guys get hold on each other and start to wrestle. The training that you move in and "obtain connection" is totally missing. IMO, the training to "obtain connection" can be as important (if not more) as the Chi Shou training itself.

Why can't there is an "advanced Chi Shou" training that start from 2 separate bodies? It should not be difficult to start from a punching range. You throw a punch, your opponent blocks it, you two then start your Chi Shou after that. You may not be able to achieve connection every time. Even if you can only achieve connection 50% of the time, that's combat reality. That kind of training will have much more combat value.

As an opposite view, I don't see any need for a type of chi sao that starts out of contact. We already practice a multitude of drills that deal with intercepting an initial attack moving from no contact to contact (whether that contact is at the arms or the end of a strike or both) including drills that introduce elements of chi sao as a follow on to the initial entry (eg expansions to simple pak sao entry). Chi sao IMO is there to train the what happens next reaction. Starting from poon sao allows for a neutral start point with neither party having any advantage, allowing for a complete range of motion and facilitating practice with both sides of the body. Application work where the partner is free to throw combinations and attack however they wish is where you join the two together.

[wingchunIan]

At a certian level, this is how I see it as well in application. "If no chi - hit". To me, chi sau is very much for fighting - but then, I don't just view 'chi sau' as just some rolling drill to train attributes either

Like wayfaring said, we also have very extensive Kiu Sau training for developing engagement tools & certain bridging strategies. And then there's our Chi Kiu technologies. And we also do have the typically seen Taan/Bong/Fook chi sau that most categorize as wing chun 'chi sau' which we use for squared-up duei yeng time frames - but again, it's all a lot more than just a drill and very much for fighting.

Can you expand on kiu sao and chi kiu? They aren't terms I'm familiar with so it might be that we do the same / similar but call it something else, or it might be something completely different to what I do and if so I'd be interested to understand more.

[chaotic2k]

Chi sau for me is a way of learning how to keep my own body/stance connection while under pressure. The worse thing in any martial art is losing you base. I need to have a solid but flexable base in stormy seas. This means i can keep pressure on the centre of mass while striking. Alot of the drills can be misleading. My chi sau is a direct link, expression of the concepts found in the forms rather than the movements.

[LoneTiger108]

Just to add a light note here, my Sifu always used to say that the reason we connect in the first place is to train habits that enable us to disconnect when and how we want to... main reason is because the last thing you would want to do with some styles is to connect and try to manipulate them unless it's with your killer technique lol!!!

Wing Chun is a touch and go system. Get in, do the damage and leave quickly. So any connection should ultimately be very very brief, if at all. This tends to be what the majority of Ip Man system guys talk about and train fme, as do other mainland and village based systems as far as I am aware.

Just thought I would put that out there