Connection

[tc101]

Ultmately, when you are in that close in-trapping-clinch range, regardless of whether you do a striking or grappling art, surely getting the guys COG is the key to success.

Wouldnt that be the key to WC's claim of a smaller person beating a bigger person????

I think this is a very insightful comment.

[guy b.]

I liked the clip.

Yeh, his guys were a bit scarecrowy, but i liked his ideas and concepts.

Ultmately, when you are in that close in-trapping-clinch range, regardless of whether you do a striking or grappling art, surely getting the guys COG is the key to success.

Wouldnt that be the key to WC's claim of a smaller person beating a bigger person????

I think this is a very insightful comment.

What is "getting" the centre of gravity?

Do you mean hitting to the centre of gravity, directly disrupting/controlling the centre of gravity (various ways, some very different to others), sensing the direction and intent of the centre of gravity, sensing and avoiding the direction and intent of the centre of gravity or a combination of these things? What you "get" has profound consequences in terms of approach.

Any two untrained people wrestling badly will "get" each others centres in some of the above ways.

[chaotic2k]

Just to add a light note here, my Sifu always used to say that the reason we connect in the first place is to train habits that enable us to disconnect when and how we want to... main reason is because the last thing you would want to do with some styles is to connect and try to manipulate them unless it's with your killer technique lol!!!

Wing Chun is a touch and go system. Get in, do the damage and leave quickly. So any connection should ultimately be very very brief, if at all. This tends to be what the majority of Ip Man system guys talk about and train fme, as do other mainland and village based systems as far as I am aware.

Just thought I would put that out there

Interesting point....

I agree you need to know when to go in and out with a quick burst but this can be a dangerous approach for wing chunners since you are putting yourself back on the starting line. I agree there are times when you need to keep out of range. The way my own wing chun works is to have a start, middle and finish. This is what i aim for.

Gain entry via timing and position (if an option)
Control Central Mass
Finish the fight by whatever means possible. Everyone understands power.

Alot of wing chun i see have no stopping power and are stuck in a very robotic way to deliver hits.

Ask yourselfs will your wing chun hold up in a tear up. Someone who can fight and wants it trying to take your head off. I doubt i would see a single Tan, bong or gaun etc...

[LoneTiger108]

Interesting point....

I agree you need to know when to go in and out with a quick burst but this can be a dangerous approach for wing chunners since you are putting yourself back on the starting line. I agree there are times when you need to keep out of range. The way my own wing chun works is to have a start, middle and finish. This is what i aim for.

Ah... but I think we share the idea of when we move in we do attempt to finish them before we leave but obvioulsy this isn't always possible so the damage caused should be enough to incapacitate so I can run away! I aint into killing dudes or claiming to be a bad ass coz I'm good at number 36 technique!!!

I do not take on the competitive mentality and aim to go back for more to score points or acheive a knockout or submission, and I truly believe this is key for Wing Chun students to understand. Do not get caught up in what everyone else says Wing Chun should be, do what you do best. Competitive training/fighting is suited for some but by no means fit for everyone.

Ask yourselfs will your wing chun hold up in a tear up. Someone who can fight and wants it trying to take your head off. I doubt i would see a single Tan, bong or gaun etc...

Listen... there is no need to 'control' anyone for any period of time, as it sounds a bit too much like wrestling. Control is for a nano-second! The system is designed to deliver short sharp shocks to the unititiated, and in some cases it has many advantages over older chinese systems because we can read and react in a way that old application based forms simply do not understand (or didn't back in the day lol!) As for dealing with the well-trained MMA fighter, well ask others here who worship them lol!

As for the power you mention, yes we need to deliver maximum force with minimum effort (another characteristic of good Wing Chun) and this should be relatively easy on the eye and simple to achieve if you have been given the correct tools and training. Actually, fme this way of delivery is rarely even SEEN because it is too fast, but it is definitely felt by the person on the recieving end

[tc101]

What is "getting" the centre of gravity?

Do you mean hitting to the centre of gravity, directly disrupting/controlling the centre of gravity (various ways, some very different to others), sensing the direction and intent of the centre of gravity, sensing and avoiding the direction and intent of the centre of gravity or a combination of these things? What you "get" has profound consequences in terms of approach.

Sure that is a way of doing it.

Any two untrained people wrestling badly will "get" each others centres in some of the above ways.

Yes very true untrained people can sometimes do these things but the idea of training is to be able to do them better more consistently right?

[chaotic2k]

What do you mean "stopping power"? Are you referring to the ability to generate striking power wherever / whenever?

I mean hard shots. No mystic internal energy. Hard punches, head butts, elbows whatever is available and allows me to keep my control.

[LoneTiger108]

I mean hard shots. No mystic internal energy. Hard punches, head butts, elbows whatever is available and allows me to keep my control.

Wah! Hard singular shots? Not such a characteristic of Wing Chun unless you've drilled weaponry or the wooden man so at a beginner level we need to hit as I suggested, continuously with accuracy and speed. Power will develop later for those that want it but it should never really be needed imho.

But it really all depends on the purpose of your training and is open to change...

[chaotic2k]

Ah... but I think we share the idea of when we move in we do attempt to finish them before we leave but obvioulsy this isn't always possible so the damage caused should be enough to incapacitate so I can run away! I aint into killing dudes or claiming to be a bad ass coz I'm good at number 36 technique!!!

I do not take on the competitive mentality and aim to go back for more to score points or acheive a knockout or submission, and I truly believe this is key for Wing Chun students to understand. Do not get caught up in what everyone else says Wing Chun should be, do what you do best. Competitive training/fighting is suited for some but by no means fit for everyone.



Listen... there is no need to 'control' anyone for any period of time, as it sounds a bit too much like wrestling. Control is for a nano-second! The system is designed to deliver short sharp shocks to the unititiated, and in some cases it has many advantages over older chinese systems because we can read and react in a way that old application based forms simply do not understand (or didn't back in the day lol!) As for dealing with the well-trained MMA fighter, well ask others here who worship them lol!

As for the power you mention, yes we need to deliver maximum force with minimum effort (another characteristic of good Wing Chun) and this should be relatively easy on the eye and simple to achieve if you have been given the correct tools and training. Actually, fme this way of delivery is rarely even SEEN because it is too fast, but it is definitely felt by the person on the recieving end

I get what your saying. Its your choice and thats cool. I clearly have a different idea of combat. Doesnt mean im right.

From personnel experience i have found that unfortunatly fighting is a tough past time. Alot of things need to be trained and sharp. Doesnt mean you need to be a macho jock to apply this BUT a realistic and functional mind set helps.

Wing chun can hold its own against modern systems but it needs to be taken that step further and tested in a progressive way. Yip man evolved his wing chun, so did WSL and thats where the true spirit of wing chun breeds. When we stay in the same spot talkng about our "sifu" and our old stories of hero worship and bull, we do nothing but stay stuck in the past.

I try to teach stuff that functions. I cant teach my students something that is going to get them hurt just because its the "old way" of teaching.


One last point. How many of you have tried years to be able to apply a move that you were taught by your teacher. This to me shows that the move does not function. Wing chun is very simple and should function very quickley. Thats a major problem with TMA in general.

Excuse my ranting....

[chaotic2k]

Wah! Hard singular shots? Not such a characteristic of Wing Chun unless you've drilled weaponry or the wooden man so at a beginner level we need to hit as I suggested, continuously with accuracy and speed. Power will develop later for those that want it but it should never really be needed imho.

But it really all depends on the purpose of your training and is open to change...

There is always a continuous flows of attack be it a hit or a barge depends. Im not talking about shutting someone down and doing a haymaker (if it works why not). Im talking short sharp, powerful strikes using my connection. All this is found in the 1st section of siu leem tau and 1st section of Chum kiu. Its bread and butter.

[tc101]

I get what your saying. Its your choice and thats cool. I clearly have a different idea of combat. Doesnt mean im right.

I think this is very insightful too. Where does the idea that there is but one right way or one best way or one superior way of using our or any art? Like with other martial arts for example boxing or bjj there are many different ideas. I've learned that what matters is not whether your idea is better than my idea but who can better perform and apply their idea. It really is not much of a comfort to say although you beat me to a pulp I have the better idea.

[Vajramusti]

Chi Sao probably the most misunderstood drill in ma.

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IMO that is true,

[GlennR]

I think this is a very insightful comment.

Thanks tc101........... seems very obvious to me

[GlennR]

What is "getting" the centre of gravity?

Controlling it, like the guy in the clip does.

Do you mean hitting to the centre of gravity, directly disrupting/controlling the centre of gravity (various ways, some very different to others), sensing the direction and intent of the centre of gravity, sensing and avoiding the direction and intent of the centre of gravity or a combination of these things? What you "get" has profound consequences in terms of approach.

All of the above

Any two untrained people wrestling badly will "get" each others centres in some of the above ways.

Try the word control then

[JPinAZ]

Yip man evolved his wing chun, so did WSL and thats where the true spirit of wing chun breeds. .

I'd say this is true if only looking at their usage in application (thier own individual styles or preferences while fighting). But IMO, the system of WCK (core concepts/principles) is complete and has no reason to evolve regardless of someone's personal skill or preference in fighting. It will only devolve if you change it.

On a side note, curriculms can evolve to suit the needs, but that is another subject apart from the system itself or one's personal evolution of fighting skills/application of the art.

[GlennR]

I think this is very insightful too. Where does the idea that there is but one right way or one best way or one superior way of using our or any art? Like with other martial arts for example boxing or bjj there are many different ideas. I've learned that what matters is not whether your idea is better than my idea but who can better perform and apply their idea. It really is not much of a comfort to say although you beat me to a pulp I have the better idea.

Youre wasting your time with a few of them here trying to explain there are different styles and approaches to WC...... as there are in boxing

But hey, have a crack at it!