The irrationality of gloved sparring

[lkfmdc]

Gloves change the way you hit. Why do people value gloved sparring so much when it is impossible to fight that way ungloved?

Gloved sparring is worthless because:

a) it encourages you to hit in a way that will mean you break your hand on the first or second punch, unless you are a girl or a small child

b) it trains false reactions, in both the puncher and punchee, that only hold when gloves are worn

c) it instills dangerous false confidence based on a model that is not close to reality. Gloved sparring is in some ways the opposite of Kano's genius in revolutionising grappling with randori. Randori removes the dangerous techniques while allowing realistic grappling training with full resistance. Gloved sparring actually accentuates the dangerous techniques while providing a completely false framework of action and reaction.

discuss

my response to this post...

(so f'in clueless)

[Sima Rong]

Boxing skills are only useful with gloves on.

1. Opponent reactions are different with gloves off; skills developed wearing gloves do not map to reality without gloves.

2. Hands break punching like a boxer with gloves off. Breaking your hand is very dangerous if someone is trying to hurt you.

I was going to write a lengthy spiel about how, apart from minor differences, the basic skills learned are the same, and that people break their hands due to poor alignment and hitting something harder than their hands.

But actually, I'll second the 'haha'.

Oh, and boxers don't only go around punching the hard part of the skull, because the gloves allow them too. There are other targets.

[wingchunIan]

Boxing skills are only useful with gloves on.

1. Opponent reactions are different with gloves off; skills developed wearing gloves do not map to reality without gloves.

2. Hands break punching like a boxer with gloves off. Breaking your hand is very dangerous if someone is trying to hurt you.

You have clearly gained most of your fighting knowledge from the internet and magazines etc. In the UK where hand to hand violence is commonplace, the majority of people working the doors of clubs and bars have a background in boxing / MT/ kickboxing and more recently MMA (obviously there are lots of arts like Judo,karate and jiu jitsu in their as well). The number of them that break their hand on a weekend is so small as to be not worth discussing. Wrist sprains and lacerations to knuckles are far more common

[guy b.]

So how do you explain nearly 2 centuries of bare knuckle boxing?

Based on this topic I seriously doubt you've done much with your hands gloved or not.

Techniques of bare knuckle boxing are different to those of gloved boxing

[MightyB]

for some reason this thread reminded me of this interview:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vPSv05AeXVc

Watch starting at the 1:15 mark. It's a short interview.

[Bernard]

All sparring practices tries to get as close as possible to real fighting. But because of safety concerns there will always be limitations. If you train with the awareness of those limitations then you can get more out of sparring.

[guy b.]

All sparring practices tries to get as close as possible to real fighting. But because of safety concerns there will always be limitations. If you train with the awareness of those limitations then you can get more out of sparring.

Gloves fundamentally change the way you hit. What is wrong with regular body shots sparring, regular light face contact sparring, and occasional heavy face contact sparring?

[Bernard]

Gloves fundamentally change the way you hit. What is wrong with regular body shots sparring, regular light face contact sparring, and occasional heavy face contact sparring?

Why nothing's wrong with those sparring practices.

[guy b.]

Why nothing's wrong with those sparring practices.

Good. And there is nothing right with gloved training for Chinese MA.

[guy b.]

my response to this post...

(so f'in clueless)

I've seen a clip of you fighting, fat man. Your gloved training appears to render you slow, unable to generate power, and working with a hopeless model of reality that doesn't correspond to where your opponents head is likely to be at any particular time. You are a particularly bad advert for gloved sparring

[Bernard]

Good. And there is nothing right with gloved training for Chinese MA.

Gloved training (mma gloves can be used too if you want to add the element of grabbing) allows for harder contact and still provide some measure of safety. That should be obvious. And as I stated earlier, as long as you are aware of the limitations gloves place as far as realism goes, than there is nothing wrong with gloved training.

[guy b.]

Gloved training (mma gloves can be used too if you want to add the element of grabbing) allows for harder contact and still provide some measure of safety. That should be obvious. And as I stated earlier, as long as you are aware of the limitations gloves place as far as realism goes, than there is nothing wrong with gloved training.

Gloved training installs a flawed model of distance and timing in your brain for bare hand fighting. Gloved training encourages a different type of power generation to the one used in wing chun. I would say that is pretty wrong.

[Bernard]

Gloved training installs a flawed model of distance and timing in your brain for bare hand fighting. Gloved training encourages a different type of power generation to the one used in wing chun. I would say that is pretty wrong.

The key word is AWARENESS. Move on buddy.

[guy b.]

The key word is AWARENESS. Move on buddy.

Being aware of the flawed distance timing model your brain is developing doesn't stop it happening. In terms of power generation you can actively work against but very difficult. Your body naturally does what is easiest. It is like training to run fast by attaching weights to your legs or training underwater. Stupid

[Lucas]

I've seen a clip of you fighting, fat man. Your gloved training appears to render you slow, unable to generate power, and working with a hopeless model of reality that doesn't correspond to where your opponents head is likely to be at any particular time. You are a particularly bad advert for gloved sparring

i'd put a good purse of money down on a bet saying any 5 of his students he picks would take you apart with or without gloves.


regardless....you do realize there is an overwhelming amount of solid evidence that proves you wrong...right?