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Thread: Three Levels + 1

  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by MightyB View Post
    All this really isn't new news (love the hooker comment btw), but it does make me wonder about the people/styles that absolutely refuse to see this.

    Using the above levels concept, there's no room for a lot of the debate that goes on - internal/external/sexual qi/health whatever - it's all irrelevant to the task at hand.

    And - once you find yourself in 3 and 4, you're really doing a lot of "internal" work.
    Nope, it isn't news now and wasn't in the past either, yet...

    The reality is that IF,and that is a big if, you want to unlock the secrets of your chosen MA then all you have to do is pressure test it and the more pressure you put on it, the better.
    Most people think that their light sparring in class I pressure testing, it isn't.
    There comes a time in every MA development stage where he/she is confronted with THE QUESTION:
    Where do you want to go with this?

    For fighters ( people that do MA for self-protection and fighting) the answer is clear and the path is clear.
    Psalms 144:1
    Praise be my Lord my Rock,
    He trains my hands for war, my fingers for battle !

  2. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Kellen Bassette View Post
    Since it can only be learned by time in the environment, it can't be passed from teacher to student orally and therefore can not be forgotten/lost. Only misplaced.
    Quotable, possibly sig worthy.

  3. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by MightyB View Post
    All this really isn't new news (love the hooker comment btw), but it does make me wonder about the people/styles that absolutely refuse to see this.

    Using the above levels concept, there's no room for a lot of the debate that goes on - internal/external/sexual qi/health whatever - it's all irrelevant to the task at hand.

    And - once you find yourself in 3 and 4, you're really doing a lot of "internal" work.
    hensc my saying its not getting any better, i know kellen was joking about the wing chun forum bit but look at the two most popular forms of TCMA out there...wing chun and tai chi both as far removed from Ronins testing grounds as anything around

    the proof has been there in the west for decades, nothing really has changed, in the states heck Ross and the other big 6 left sanda for thai and MMA because of the problems, in china you have that silly programme which pretends to pit chinese styles against other arts in a reality sanda show, but really its fake

    people dont want to know the truth and if MMA hasnt changed it now, and if the results of those old lei tei matches before the 30's didnt change it back then, then what is going to change it??

  4. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Frost View Post
    hensc my saying its not getting any better, i know kellen was joking about the wing chun forum bit but look at the two most popular forms of TCMA out there...wing chun and tai chi both as far removed from Ronins testing grounds as anything around
    I still have faith in WC and Tai Chi (I don't practice either). I think the capacity for combat is in both arts, it just has to be cultivated in the 3rd stage.

  5. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by MightyB View Post
    I still have faith in WC and Tai Chi (I don't practice either). I think the capacity for combat is in both arts, it just has to be cultivated in the 3rd stage.
    I know guys that use both in fights and use them well.
    How?
    They train to use them in a fight AND they train against non-WC/Taiji people.

    The more "specialized" your system is, the more you need to pressure test it VS other systems.
    Psalms 144:1
    Praise be my Lord my Rock,
    He trains my hands for war, my fingers for battle !

  6. #21
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    I don't subscribe to an idea of levels at all.
    Just 2 points.

    1. Begin

    2. Continue

    You will progress just the same if you follow that path.
    Prescribing levels to minutia of exercise and martial art is just weird.

    For fighting, every one has their day, and then it passes and then they fight no more forever.
    Kung Fu is good for you.

  7. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by David Jamieson View Post
    I don't subscribe to an idea of levels at all.
    Just 2 points.

    1. Begin

    2. Continue

    You will progress just the same if you follow that path.
    Prescribing levels to minutia of exercise and martial art is just weird.

    For fighting, every one has their day, and then it passes and then they fight no more forever.
    It's not minutia prescribed levels - "levels" is just the best way to describe steps in the path. Saying there's a beginning stage, a middle stage, an advanced stage, and an end stage would be accurate as well. The issue at hand is how people are using their time to train. And even fighting as in sport fighting or what have you is a bit misleading because the goal is and isn't fighting, but fighting certainly plays a role in development if total mastery of the art is your goal.

    What I was getting at when I started the thread is that there never was really anything inherently wrong with any TCMA or MA. But there can be wrong paths, and stalled development. And without fixating on fighting, it's the free flow of the concepts and techniques with another person that you should be working. And that's "internal" to you. It's not a me vs him, it's how well am I able to apply this kung fu.

    One thing's for sure - if you don't spend time in "level 3" you will never be able to apply your kung fu and you will never progress from the beginner intermediate level.

  8. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by sanjuro_ronin View Post
    Traditionally speaking:
    Level 1 - basic strength and conditioning along with the basic techniques that make the core/structure of the system.
    Level 2- drills and more drills, increasing in intensity and "unpredictability".
    Level 3- free fighting of various degrees of contact and finally forms.
    I'll put level 1 at the end as:

    Level 1 (develop) - partner drills.
    Level 2 (test) - sparring/wrestling.
    Level 3 (polish, enhance) - solo drills, weight equipment training.

    because solo drill is for "polishing" and weight equipment training is for "enhancement". Without developing techniques first, there is nothing to polish or enhance.

    If one has no talent or desire to develop combat skill, you don't need to provide him any more information.
    Last edited by YouKnowWho; 05-22-2013 at 12:11 PM.
    http://johnswang.com

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  9. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by MightyB View Post
    the problems we express with TCMA are because there's a tradition of spending way too much time in levels 1 and 2
    And it's for this reason I believe TMA are on the decline. Levels 1 and 2 as described do not provide students with instant gratification. Which is in turn why not many people are studying it today.

    Someone asked why then is BJJ successful? Because even though it follows teaching patterns of a TMA it still offers the student instant gratification. You go to class, learn an arm bar from guard, then spar and practice said arm bar.

    Remember we live in a time of the fast food american mindset. We want it now, we don't want too pay much for it and it should take as little effort as possible to achieve.

  10. #25
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    You will have the rest of your life to make your punch strong. Skill "enhancement" should not be required to be developed in step 1.
    http://johnswang.com

    More opinion -> more argument
    Less opinion -> less argument
    No opinion -> no argument

  11. #26
    There's no reason not to spar from day 1. You don't have to take the student's head off. Let him get a couple hits in then give him a couple, build the intensity gradually, as his competence and technique improves.
    Quote Originally Posted by YouKnowWho View Post
    This is 100% TCMA principle. It may be used in non-TCMA also. Since I did learn it from TCMA, I have to say it's TCMA principle.
    Quote Originally Posted by YouKnowWho View Post
    We should not use "TCMA is more than combat" as excuse for not "evolving".

    You can have Kung Fu in cooking, it really has nothing to do with fighting!

  12. #27
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    The way of wombat combat is to crush the student from day one and force them to develop victory through defeat. This way only the strong survive.
    For whoso comes amongst many shall one day find that no one man is by so far the mightiest of all.

  13. #28
    This is a very interesting discussion. I have toyed with the idea of "Three Levels" for quite sometime now within my own teaching and have finally taken the plunge and implemented a "Three Level" system of personal student recognition over that of the previously used 9 level way with different coloured sasahes etc.

    It feels immediatately liberating and ALL of my students/members are extremely happy with the new Three Level system!

    The only representation of any level is found in the White Sash one wears when they start, the Black Sash they wear when they graduate as Teachers and a simple Red Sash when they reach the highest level. That’s it! No multi-coloured levels that looks like Walt Disney took up Martial Arts!

    We approach the whole concept of grading and “Ranks” in a very different way! Firstly, we don’t have “Ranks” as such but rather what we term “Personal Development Promotions” in recognition of each individuals progress & understanding. We emphasise the need for continual, never-ending improvement & understanding. We also acknowledge just as it is within our forms, there are also “levels within levels!”

    Being awarded a “Rank” is not the “be all and end all” it is part of the totality of the learning experience! The whole idea of “Ranks” is as a means of motivating people along the path. For a true martial arts to be natural and reflect reality, it cannot be defined by ranks and techniques, and forms alone.

    Ron Goninan
    China Fuzhou Zhenlan Crane Boxing Australia
    White Crane Research Institute Inc
    http://www.whitecranegongfu.info
    A seeker of the way

  14. #29
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    ^ It's not about rank. It's about; does the student feel like they've achieved something from day one walking out of your class? Most instructors would quickly say, "Yes, they learned so much valuable information to help take them to the next level." While the student leaves the class thinking it was a good exercise but we did a lot of weird drills and stances that don't make sense to me and I don't think will ever work. And they usually don't return.

    Instructors commonly will fall into a trap of what I call "Black Belt Eyes". This is when the instructor looks at the student's benefits through their years of experience and training, and even though they honestly know what's best for the student and how to make them successful, the student sees it as a waste of time.

    * See my previous post*

    Again, we live in an age of instant gratification. The majority are not willing to spend years on end to perfect their craft. Or so they don't think so when they first walk through your doors.

    YouKnowWho is on the right track. From the moment the prospective student walks through the doors to inquire about class they need to feel they will get something out of it immediately. It's the mentality, What's in it for Me?

    Level 1 - Develop skills through partner drills
    Level 2 - Test skill in sparring
    Level 3 - Polish skills with solo drills

    If you look closely at BJJ and Tae Kwon Do this is the formula they use to develop students and that's why their schools are successful.

  15. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shaolin View Post
    Level 2 - Test skill in sparring.
    If you can let your students to test skill against other styles, that will be even better. Since I only have 2 students right now, they are too used to spar/wrestle againt each other, they both went to different MMA gyms to test their skill.
    http://johnswang.com

    More opinion -> more argument
    Less opinion -> less argument
    No opinion -> no argument

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