Three Levels + 1

[David Jamieson]

If you can let your students to test skill against other styles, that will be even better. Since I only have 2 students right now, they are too used to spar/wrestle againt each other, they both went to different MMA gyms to test their skill.

This is forward thinking and useful.
You're a good teacher!

[Shaolin]

If you can let your students to test skill against other styles, that will be even better. Since I only have 2 students right now, they are too used to spar/wrestle againt each other, they both went to different MMA gyms to test their skill.

I agree. That's why personally, outside of training my students I train at the MMA Lab. As for my students I have two good friends that have their own schools and on Saturdays they usually bring 5-10 students each to my sparring class. We spar for an hour stand up and then an hour on the ground.

[Kymus]

If you can let your students to test skill against other styles, that will be even better. Since I only have 2 students right now, they are too used to spar/wrestle againt each other, they both went to different MMA gyms to test their skill.

I have to join with the others and mention how spot-on this is. I've had this philosophy for probably over a decade, thanks to my somewhat coincidental crosstraining. I think it's really important to understand how to deal with different arts and perhaps this is why I am always so interested (obsessed, really) in the technical aspects of an art. I want to know what their method of attack is, and furthermore, I try to understand how to approach different opponents.

I think the understanding of how to deal with different opponents based on size, power, speed, and fighting technique is something that is fundamentally missing from TMA these days. You can't approach an opponent and expect to win the same way every time.

[YouKnowWho]

I think it's really important to understand how to deal with different arts ...

If Judo guys have to consider how to deal with boxers or MT guys, will their training be any different? You can train "sport" and think about "sport". You can also train "sport' and think about "combat". The training pathes won't be the same.

IMO, it's wrong to train a TCMA style and not familiar how to deal with:

- wrestler's leg shooting,
- MT guy's roundhouse kick,
- boxer's hook punch,
- TKD guy's side kick,
- ...

[Kymus]

If Judo guys have to consider how to deal with boxers or MT guys, will their training be any different?

That depends on whether they're training to be able to handle themselves against a variety of attackers (ie: realistic self defense) or just another judo guy.

You can train "sport" and think about "sport". You can also train "sport' and think about "combat". The training pathes won't be the same.

It's wrong to train a TCMA style and not familiar how to deal with:

- wrestler's leg shooting,
- MT guy's roundhouse kick,
- boxer's hook punch,
- TKD guy's side kick,
- ...

I agree whole heartedly

[jdhowland]

The 3 levels are based on the heaven-man-earth trinity. The 3 strokes in writing "san/saam/three" are heaven-man-earth as are the same figure found in "wong" (king, emperor) but in this case they are connected by the vertical stroke--the spinal column, the will or the individual who can communicate with all three worlds. This is the job of the emperor or the fully realized man--to bring all levels of being into harmony.

The CLF I learned has three levels. Not really beginning/intermediate/advanced, although it makes the most sense to learn them in this order. Ng Leun Cheui, the basic set illustrates the divisions in three sections, each appropriate for a different level of understanding of the system. The first level is about strength, stability, rushing forward and backward and long range power. The second level uses more subtle movements with grappling and trapping skills as well as twisting and circling footwork. The third level emphasizes smaller footwork and precise angling with vital point striking.

It makes sense to me to learn the basic, "high percentage" moves first, then the joint locking and specialty strikes later.

[YouKnowWho]

The 3 levels are ...

Someone asked me, "If you label 3 baskets as beginner, intermediate, and advance, will you be able to put TCMA skills into these 3 baskets?

IMO, any punches without involving footwork can be categoried as "beginner level". So if punches involved footwork, should you put it in the "intermediate level" basket or "advance level" basket? Do we really need 3 baskets? Can 2 basket "beginner level" and "non-beginner level" should be good enough?

The 3 levels is very clear in the SC system.

beginner level - offense skill
intermediate level - defense skill
advance level - combo

[bawang]

" three levels of boxing

the high level, he is deceptive, his hands are loose. he doesnt take risks. his real attack looks like a feint, his feint looks real. he hits in all directions. he lures the enemy to attack. this is the divine level of boxing, a boxing saint.

the alright level, he does not telegraph. he is not amazing, but he has mastered all the basics. he leaves no gaps. his eye is good and his footwork is clear. he attacks and defends, and knows when to be hard and soft. he is 90% there.

the lower level, his entire body is filled with gaps, he tires himself, he repeats the same thing over and over. his arms are stiff like frozen by ice. his footwork is random. his hands are tight and his groin is open. he runs his mouth off, but when he fights for real he doesnt even keeps his hands up. this is the lowest level in boxing."

- shaolin boxing appendix

[Yum Cha]

Talk about your three levels, formally. Sure, but the informal reality is really much more circular. Like the riddle of the Sphinx....
You talk to a lot of people about TCMA
You start, stretching, building coordination and strength,
You start basic forms and techniques
You get stronger, faster
You start sparring
You learn more techniques, and get on top of a lot of it.
You start fighting
You start mastering the key techniques and combinations
You teach
You start sparring with students
you start re-learning unused techniques
You get weaker and slower
You practice basic forms and techniques
You spend a lot of time stretching, keeping coordination and trying to maintain strength...
You talk to a lot of people about TCMA.

<shrugs>

[SoCo KungFu]

Since you used BJJ as your example I'm just going to stick with that. BJJ is effective because before you leave class, you've rolled with the techniques you learned that day. Every single student, regardless of skill level, walks in, learns the tech, drills it a bit, then rolls and tries to pull it off.

This crap about "instant gratification" and blaming the students is a cop out. If you aren't having your students sparring on day one, you're doing them a disservice.

Here's an idea, don't teach forms. At all. Go a year with a new student and not teach a single form. YOU do the homework ahead of time. YOU pick out a couple techniques for class everyday and a couple setups. And you teach them that, rather than forms and hoping they have a light bulb moment.

You got hour class? Lecture the move and setup, should take no more than 5-10 min. Have them drill it (5min tops). Then get out the way and let them learn by doing (sparring).

Kung fu teachers are a lot like science writers. You guys have this bit that you really like (the form). But everyone proof reading your stuff is saying it's out of place, its not working in the writing, it'd be best just to remove it all together and bring out the material in other areas (sparring, competing). And like a stubborn writer, kung fu teachers don't want to let go of that piece. "How can they understand this part of science if I don't break it all the way down first? They need to learn the structure." They think no one knows what they're talking about, "How can you speak on my ART?" And then the paper gets rejected by a pub because its got too much excessive crap, and excessive crap costs money in publication.

Forms are for the old who are forgetting their techniques. Its a memory cue.

I've yet to see any compelling argument as to how you can train proper structure for hitting things at full force, by not hitting anything with any force at all. That's what a form is, not hitting anything with any force.

[Yum Cha]

... YOU pick out a couple techniques for class everyday and a couple setups. And you teach them that, rather than forms and hoping they have a light bulb moment.

You got hour class? Lecture the move and setup, should take no more than 5-10 min. Have them drill it (5min tops). Then get out the way and let them learn by doing (sparring).

Sounds exactly like forms training to me.
Just saying...

[SoCo KungFu]

Sounds exactly like forms training to me.
Just saying...

Teaching them a techniques and its setups and letting them learn through sparring (like in a BJJ class), is like teaching a form and hoping they figure it out? Yeah that doesn't compute.

[Yum Cha]

Teaching them a techniques and its setups and letting them learn through sparring (like in a BJJ class), is like teaching a form and hoping they figure it out? Yeah that doesn't compute.

In all fairness, you are right and wrong, just like some schools are strong, and some are weak.

Some people are forms collectors, they memorise a dance, and add it to a portfolio. More the merrier.

But some schools/forms are just taught in increments, the increment worked on to develop muscle memory, then worked on in controlled application with other students or a coach, then added to your sparring toolkit. When all the parts are complete, you tie them together as the form. 108 moves isn't very many.

If you are pacing your forms training to meet quarterly budgets/expectations of testing and advancement revenues, you might tend to rush through them, they become an end, not a means.

Somewhere in here is the depth vs breadth argument.

[SoCo KungFu]

But some schools/forms are just taught in increments, the increment worked on to develop muscle memory, then worked on in controlled application with other students or a coach

I repeat, I've yet to see a convincing argument as to how you can train to hit moving objects with full force, by not hitting anything with any force. There's a number of reason why trying to develop muscle memory through a form is actually more detrimental in the students progression.

[Yum Cha]

I repeat, I've yet to see a convincing argument as to how you can train to hit moving objects with full force, by not hitting anything with any force. There's a number of reason why trying to develop muscle memory through a form is actually more detrimental in the students progression.

I don't think you're reading what I'm writing - or selectively editing out the part about adding it too your tools for free fighting because it didn't fit your pre-conscieved argument.