Three Levels + 1

[MightyB]

I read too much, visit forums too much, and generally waste a lot of time, so I won't be able to accurately cite the source. With that being said...

I've often heard there are three levels to Martial Arts training.

The first being the forms level. This is for the absolute beginner to teach them the structure of the style.

The 2nd being the tui shou, playing hands, chi sau stage. This is where you start to play with the techniques and start using the principles with another person.

The 3rd is the free fighting stage. This is where you really start to internalize and apply the concepts of the style.

Then there's the mastery level where you're able to incorporate other styles and concepts into your own application.

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IMO, the problems we express with TCMA are because there's a tradition of spending way too much time in levels 1 and 2, and real personal development doesn't happen in those levels. What were finding now is that there's difficulty in properly achieving the 3rd level. We're having to write the book to get there because it kind've got lost. To make matters worse, a lot of the middle aged masters that are teaching now realized this - unfortunately during the 70's and 80's, and the style of fighting that they tried to bridge to isn't good ultimately for modern TCMA.

[MightyB]

so, the reason for success of say a MA like BJJ is...

if you look at their training on a graph, you'd see that they spend most of their time in levels 3 and 4 by the time they get their black belt.

We have a problem with 3 because, for example, if I'm a mantis player, level three should have spontaneous use of diu sau, tiu sau, and ou lou choi. If that's not happening cleanly, there's an issue of properly getting to 3. So then 3 isn't really 3.

This is happening with a lot of TCMA styles and practitioners.

[MightyB]

now we introduce another issue. We "the fighter wannabes" are trying for level 4, but we're really not true level 3s. We spar, we use technique, but often it's borrowed technique.

[MightyB]

Now for the good news...

I think a lot of modern TCMA practitioners are on the right track. It's unfortunate that we have to reinvent the process to get to 3, I personally think it was lost about 100 years ago.

[MightyB]

To make matters worse, a lot of the middle aged masters that are teaching now realized this - unfortunately during the 70's and 80's, and the style of fighting that they tried to bridge to isn't good ultimately for modern TCMA.

Referring to the 70's and 80's fighting circuits. There were a lot of goofy rules that influenced martial arts. IMO Adapting to those rules hurt martial arts development.

[Frost]

I don’t think a lot are on the right track, i think a lot still have their heads buried in the sand, and its worse now than a hundred years ago because people expect a certain kind of training when attending a kung fu class, and if the teacher doesn’t supply it the student leaves

And i think point 2 above is more harmful than good in a lot of cases, it trys to make fighting conform to certain stylistic principles , and when you reach three you find out fighting is just fighting and doesn’t conform to any styles preference

As an aside i would love to be able to watch some of the old leitei matches, i suspect they look alot like MMA without the ground work, and you probably couldn’t tell the arts the practitioners were from

[sanjuro_ronin]

Traditionally speaking:
Level 1 - basic strength and conditioning along with the basic techniques that make the core/structure of the system.
Level 2- drills and more drills, increasing in intensity and "unpredictability".
Level 3- free fighting of various degrees of contact and finally forms.

[Frost]

Traditionally speaking:
Level 1 - basic strength and conditioning along with the basic techniques that make the core/structure of the system.
Level 2- drills and more drills, increasing in intensity and "unpredictability".
Level 3- free fighting of various degrees of contact and finally forms.

and when did this stop being the norm? if we are to believe some old interviews posted on this forum a long long time ago, and dispite several fighting masters warning about what would happen nothing changed back then or now

[MightyB]

Traditionally speaking:
Level 1 - basic strength and conditioning along with the basic techniques that make the core/structure of the system.
Level 2- drills and more drills, increasing in intensity and "unpredictability".
Level 3- free fighting of various degrees of contact and finally forms.

Great summary.
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I'm with Frost, why did this stop and why was nothing done about it sooner?

I suspect it didn't stop in all schools, but without outside of the kwoon pressure testing, it might as well have.

[Kellen Bassette]

I don’t think a lot are on the right track, i think a lot still have their heads buried in the sand, and its worse now than a hundred years ago because people expect a certain kind of training when attending a kung fu class, and if the teacher doesn’t supply it the student leaves

I got to believe there is headway being made...more TCMA guys are competing in Sanda, KuoShu, Muay Thai and even MMA...any one that is competing, more than once, will have to adopt practical training techniques...

Sure there is a LOT of crap out there, but I feel like many of people are moving in the right direction...look at how many on this forum are pushing/discussing it...don't let the negativity of the WC forum poison you...

[sanjuro_ronin]

Great summary.
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I'm with Frost, why did this stop and why was nothing done about it sooner?

I suspect it didn't stop in all schools, but without outside of the kwoon pressure testing, it might as well have.

MA become more of a hobby.
Firearms made it semi-obsolete.
Teachers that were more interested in mass consumption than tradition.
Lazy and pussified students.

The choices were become a sport and maintain a degree of combat effectiveness because, well, you are fighting to at least a certain degree.
Or become a school that catered to the "well to do" or the people looking for something different, something exotic that still could be used to fight ( ina limited way).
Sport requires people to actually fight AND be effective and the honest truth is by the time it came around, many systems had been so watered down that they teachers just didn't know how to fight for real, much less TRAIN fighters.
So they failed and in sport, failure does NOT attract people.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I got to believe there is headway being made...more TCMA guys are competing in Sanda, KuoShu, Muay Thai and even MMA...any one that is competing, more than once, will have to adopt practical training techniques...

Sure there is a LOT of crap out there, but I feel like many of people are moving in the right direction...look at how many on this forum are pushing/discussing it...don't let the negativity of the WC forum poison you...

MMA has made a comment and that comment is: The "too deadly" is BS.
Vale tudo was the beginning because it said, "fine, no rules just like you want, lets dance" and what happened?
The "too deadly" folded like a hooker punched by her pimp.
What was learned and proven over and over was that to fight well you must fight and the type of training you do is what you bring to the "ring" ( where ever that ring may be).
TCMA saw that for them to be able to beat MMA and Thai fighters and the what not, they had to train like them ( adapt the methods, not the style) and in doing so, whatever style they did, they could make it work.

Pressure testing, the one element that TCMA ALL had in common, the one thing that was put on the back burner, became the "key" to unlocking the effectiveness of the style.
Like it had ALWAYS been.

[MightyB]

MMA has made a comment and that comment is: The "too deadly" is BS.
Vale tudo was the beginning because it said, "fine, no rules just like you want, lets dance" and what happened?
The "too deadly" folded like a hooker punched by her pimp.
What was learned and proven over and over was that to fight well you must fight and the type of training you do is what you bring to the "ring" ( where ever that ring may be).
TCMA saw that for them to be able to beat MMA and Thai fighters and the what not, they had to train like them ( adapt the methods, not the style) and in doing so, whatever style they did, they could make it work.

Pressure testing, the one element that TCMA ALL had in common, the one thing that was put on the back burner, became the "key" to unlocking the effectiveness of the style.
Like it had ALWAYS been.

All this really isn't new news (love the hooker comment btw), but it does make me wonder about the people/styles that absolutely refuse to see this.

Using the above levels concept, there's no room for a lot of the debate that goes on - internal/external/sexual qi/health whatever - it's all irrelevant to the task at hand.

And - once you find yourself in 3 and 4, you're really doing a lot of "internal" work.

[Kellen Bassette]

Pressure testing, the one element that TCMA ALL had in common, the one thing that was put on the back burner, became the "key" to unlocking the effectiveness of the style.
Like it had ALWAYS been.

"Everything that is old can be made new again."

It never ceases to amaze me how many people with fairly limited MA experience immediately recognize the proper context of certain traditional drills/form work when regularly sparring under heavy pressure. I feel like I see relative noobs achieve a far greater understanding of the art than many who have spent a lifetime training, but never really tested it.

This is why I am optimistic that the "secrets" can never truly be lost. Like so many have said here before, the secrets are usually just common sense. When your hitting and trying not to be hit, things start to become much more clear.

I think any traditionally trained martial artists, as long as he is not too old/stubborn/set in his ways, can readily learn and adapt in the pressure environment, so long as he is willing to enter it.

Since it can only be learned by time in the environment, it can't be passed from teacher to student orally and therefore can not be forgotten/lost. Only misplaced.

[MightyB]

by internal I mean you're actively contemplating the truths behind real martial arts. It's not qi alchemy magic.