What happens to Wing Chun when you make it competitive?

[BPWT]

I don't think competition necessarily means your WT/VT/WC will suffer.

We train a fighting art, so you have to fight with it at some point in order to test what you're doing. (unless you train purely for the love of the art and don't care one way or the other if it works for you/if you can make it work, in a fight... which is cool too - some people just love to practice a given art for nothing more than the sake of it)

We know that the likes of Sum Nung and Yeun Kay San accepted challenge matches, Yip Man exchanged with other Wing Chunners (and I'm sure there was a competitive edge to that - it's human nature).

People are competitive creatures

I spar, but I don't compete in competitions - the sparring is a learning tool and also has that competitive edge to it.

My only concern with people in our art sparring is that I think many approach it too early. I think there should be a transition from isolated partner drills and pad and bag work, to Chi Sau and Lat Sau, and then to sparring.

Otherwise it is hard/difficult to spar while keeping to the art (its concepts, its body methods, strategies, etc).

For sure, what I think is the correct methodology is not the fastest way to train in a live environment. Taking boxing lessons or joining a MMA class will get you there quicker (if that's where you're looking to get)

[LoneTiger108]

You can test your wing chun without fighting. You can test your structure without fighting, you can test your chi Sao without fighting, you can test your form without fighting and so on. These are all wing chun. Wing chun has various levels and you can test each one only through performance by doing that aspect. You test structure through performance, chi Sao through performance, form through performance and yes application through performance. How else can you possibly test your ability to freely apply your wing chun skills against someone trying to fight back except by doing that?

Performing the curriculum tests your knowledge of the curriculum but it does not test your ability to freely use your wing chun against someone fighting you.

*YAWN!

You do see that you answered with no answers don't you?

Key to my question was the word 'HOW'??? You say I can test everything here without fighting, but you do not tell me how other than 'performing my curriculum'??? Basically you are trying to agree with what I say but then throw in your conclusion at the end, which is the now infamous 'if you aint fighting you aint testing nothing'

Let me ask you how have you accomplished your self testing? I can only guess that you have gone out and fought people for the hell of it or have got into fights that you didn't start and fared pretty well?

OR Have you competed and tested your unlimited Wing Chun skill in a quite limited sporting environment?

[LoneTiger108]

I don't think competition necessarily means your WT/VT/WC will suffer.

We train a fighting art, so you have to fight with it at some point in order to test what you're doing. (unless you train purely for the love of the art and don't care one way or the other if it works for you/if you can make it work, in a fight... which is cool too - some people just love to practice a given art for nothing more than the sake of it)

We know that the likes of Sum Nung and Yeun Kay San accepted challenge matches, Yip Man exchanged with other Wing Chunners (and I'm sure there was a competitive edge to that - it's human nature).

People are competitive creatures

I spar, but I don't compete in competitions - the sparring is a learning tool and also has that competitive edge to it.

My only concern with people in our art sparring is that I think many approach it too early. I think there should be a transition from isolated partner drills and pad and bag work, to Chi Sau and Lat Sau, and then to sparring.

Otherwise it is hard/difficult to spar while keeping to the art (its concepts, its body methods, strategies, etc).

For sure, what I think is the correct methodology is not the fastest way to train in a live environment. Taking boxing lessons or joining a MMA class will get you there quicker (if that's where you're looking to get)

Wah! FINALLY a post that is insightful and makes sense

[JPinAZ]

Wah! Isn't this what everyone else here is asking too? And they all have their answers which I can only presume most guys here agree with?

You spar.
You fight.
You compete.
You pressure test.

A 5 year old can do everything above with NO Martial Art training whatsoever!!! Actually what people are saying is you test your Wing Chun by doing anything BUT your curriculum... Sheez!

How do you test your Wing Chun without fighting? Answer me that...

Funny, this is the golden question I've asked you several times already, which you simply keep ignoring. For me, the easy answer is, you can't - You have to do at least some of the things you listed above to test your art without plain old fighting it out on the streets. And it's pretty well accepted that the curriculum alone won't do it (forms, drills, chi sau, etc being the curriculum).
And let me be clear, you don't need to 'compete' to do it, but IMO one of the others you listed should be part of it at some point. Competition is one avenue. Have you seen the clips on youtube of Phil's guys 'competing' in the MUSU in NY? Far from the dreaded point sparring you are so against

Now, since you oppose the above things you've listed to a point you dislike even watching them, why not answer the question yourself and give an alternate viewpoint? How do you test your WC without fighting, competing or sparring others outside your school?

[tc101]

*YAWN!

You do see that you answered with no answers don't you?

Key to my question was the word 'HOW'??? You say I can test everything here without fighting, but you do not tell me how other than 'performing my curriculum'??? Basically you are trying to agree with what I say but then throw in your conclusion at the end, which is the now infamous 'if you aint fighting you aint testing nothing'

Let me ask you how have you accomplished your self testing? I can only guess that you have gone out and fought people for the hell of it or have got into fights that you didn't start and fared pretty well?

OR Have you competed and tested your unlimited Wing Chun skill in a quite limited sporting environment?

Sorry I am boring you so that you need to yawn. I guess Yip Man's code of conduct does not require manners.

You did not understand what I wrote. You test the various aspects of wing chun by performing those various aspects. You test structure through structure tests, form by performing forms, chi Sao skills by doing chi Sao. I do to think that is hard to understand. You do the same thing to test your ability to use your wing chun against someone fighting you. You don't need to get into street fights to test your ability to apply wing chun against someone fighting with you. You can spar or compete. Sparring and sporting contexts do not have to be quite limited as you think. If you can't practice it in sparring or competition you can't really practice doing it so you will be trying to do something in a street fight you have never really practiced.

I think everyone can make their wing chun work. The question isn't can you make it work the question is at what level can you make it work. Wing chun does not just have an on off switch.

[LoneTiger108]

Sorry I am boring you so that you need to yawn. I guess Yip Man's code of conduct does not require manners.

Sorry if you thought that was bad manners but I can't help but express my boredom these days. Besides I really don't know if Ip Mans code of conduct can be applied here as I have expected. Just too many people who couldn't give a ****!

You did not understand what I wrote.

Because I got bored? Thought I was clear that I was of the opinion that you didn't really say anything to support your view. But thanks for this info as it helps me understand a little more...

You test the various aspects of wing chun by performing those various aspects. You test structure through structure tests, form by performing forms, chi Sao skills by doing chi Sao. I do to think that is hard to understand.

You like to tell me what I am doing, but I asked 'how'? By the logic you show here, to test my fighting skills I would still have to fight... which I am getting used to hearing and understand completely. But 'how'? How to fight to test my striking skill? How to fight to test my defensive skill? This is what I mean and I believe you can test these skills efficiently enough through good interactive training. Sparring too if you like. But fighting? I do not see that as being a place to test anything. You must do. Which for me is the result of all the previous testing.

Am I making any sense?

Trying to watch the footie and type here is a multi-task challenge lol!

If you can't practice it in sparring or competition you can't really practice doing it so you will be trying to do something in a street fight you have never really practiced.

If you're talking about striking a moving target I can train this without sparring. If you're talking about impact I can train this without sparring. Accuracy, speed and power I train without sparring. All skills that are required in sparring. And here is my final point... I like the idea of sparring to build on these skills I have trained through a more lively activity, but both participants are still holding back. They're purpose is to help each other improve and that's a totally different universe to an actual fight in my book.

This is why I support the idea that we train for the fight throughout our entire system. And if competing for the win is necessary for a practitioner to feel complete in their training, I totally disagree. Just as I disagree that a Sifu or Coach needs to have proved himself in this way, which seems to be the backbone of any debate here about what Wing Chun is for these days.

So here's my limited view based on my limited experience of competitions:

If we are to showcase our entire system the sparring platforms I have witnessed have been very limited and do not do the system any justice at all when it is compared to other mainstream Martial Art competitions. I have heard that the past 80's comps in the UK were pretty gruesome, and although made a statement in their day they would be considered pretty light weight now. Up to this day families/lineages have not really come together to create a unique competitive platform that does everything I would expect, and possibly more.

And if we all did this, there must be a unified purpose.

This is where I struggle to go beyond, because we all have individual purpose and just can't seem to agree on anything anymore and that is a pretty sad place for any Martial Art system to be.

Do we all lose either way? If we have comps and if we do not?

[tc101]

You like to tell me what I am doing, but I asked 'how'? By the logic you show here, to test my fighting skills I would still have to fight... which I am getting used to hearing and understand completely. But 'how'? How to fight to test my striking skill? How to fight to test my defensive skill? This is what I mean and I believe you can test these skills efficiently enough through good interactive training. Sparring too if you like. But fighting? I do not see that as being a place to test anything. You must do. Which for me is the result of all the previous testing.

Am I making any sense?

I do understand what you are putting forth.

Fighting skills are what we practice in sparring right? You seem attached to the idea that a fight is defending yourself in an assault. Yes that is one sort of fight but is not the only kind. The main idea here is sparring is where we practice against someone who is fighting back and trying to defeat them using our wing chun. By trying to do that and by practicing that we get better dealing with someone fighting us.

Can we not say that anytime we use our wing chun it is a test of some sort?

If you're talking about striking a moving target I can train this without sparring. If you're talking about impact I can train this without sparring. Accuracy, speed and power I train without sparring. All skills that are required in sparring. And here is my final point... I like the idea of sparring to build on these skills I have trained through a more lively activity, but both participants are still holding back. They're purpose is to help each other improve and that's a totally different universe to an actual fight in my book.

That sort of training is good in that it sharpens our tools but it is not practicing using those tools to defeat someone trying to defeat you. Sharpening the tools is one part of training and practicing using the tools to defeat an opponent is another part.

I understand wanting to do cooperative holding back sparring to help your partner improve and I think some of that maybe a good thing but as if you don't practice sparring with someone actively trying to beat you there is a lot of things you will miss.

This is why I support the idea that we train for the fight throughout our entire system. And if competing for the win is necessary for a practitioner to feel complete in their training, I totally disagree. Just as I disagree that a Sifu or Coach needs to have proved himself in this way, which seems to be the backbone of any debate here about what Wing Chun is for these days.

So here's my limited view based on my limited experience of competitions:

If we are to showcase our entire system the sparring platforms I have witnessed have been very limited and do not do the system any justice at all when it is compared to other mainstream Martial Art competitions. I have heard that the past 80's comps in the UK were pretty gruesome, and although made a statement in their day they would be considered pretty light weight now. Up to this day families/lineages have not really come together to create a unique competitive platform that does everything I would expect, and possibly more.

And if we all did this, there must be a unified purpose.

This is where I struggle to go beyond, because we all have individual purpose and just can't seem to agree on anything anymore and that is a pretty sad place for any Martial Art system to be.

Do we all lose either way? If we have comps and if we do not?

If a person wants to participate in organized competitions or not is a personal choice. There is nothing wrong with competing or not competing. I do not think wing chun needs any unified purpose as you propose. The individual is not there to serve the system the system is there to serve the individual.

[GlennR]

Jumping from Seans thread...........

Is a unified direction too much to ask?

Unified direction where?? What for?
Its might sound all warm and cosey but what for?

Nope. It was my heartfelt attempt at trying to talk a language this dude from AZ might understand... but no worries as it sounds like he has his jock friends on here to protect him lol!

And there you go again.... havent you been mumbling something about codes of honour and so forth, but happy to make sweeping generalisations of people due to something they do, in this case MMA.

And tell me why you want to compete? What do you gain from competing with Wing Chun?

Its hardwired into everyone to compete.... evolution and all that stuff you know. Youre competing right now by arguing on this forum.

Why compete with WC. Because its fun and i like to make things work that people say cant......... happy with that?

Oh wait... try responding on my own thread if you can be bothered.

Youre never a bother Spencer

Love... Hobby Boy

[JPinAZ]

Nope. It was my heartfelt attempt at trying to talk a language this dude from AZ might understand... but no worries as it sounds like he has his jock friends on here to protect him lol!

This attachment you have to me is getting a bit creepy bro. Maybe you can start another thread entitled "How I love JP in AZ"?

[LoneTiger108]

This attachment you have to me is getting a bit creepy bro. Maybe you can start another thread entitled "How I love JP in AZ"?

I think you may need to lookit yourself dude??! Everytime I think I have said what I need to say you return like an over possessive ex??!

Jog on mate... or at least try and stick to the thread subject matter and actually give some sound reasoning to your ideals...

[JPinAZ]

or at least try and stick to the thread subject matter and actually give some sound reasoning to your ideals...

Thanks, but I did exactly that 2 posts ago in direct reply to you. Maybe you missed that one? Because you didn't reply.. Post 49. Now's your chance!

And my creepy reply still stands. It is getting weird.

[LoneTiger108]

Thanks, but I did exactly that 2 posts ago in direct reply to you. Maybe you missed that one? Because you didn't reply.. Post 49. Now's your chance!

Well yep! Definitely missed that post #49 so it seems we have missed a unique opportunity to hug and make up lol!

My question, which was actually aimed at the whole group here, was:

How do you test your Wing Chun without fighting? Answer me that...

And I asked that question specifically, and answered it myself in post #51 while chatting with tc101 as I think he/she understands a little more about what I am talking about here maybe...

Funny, this is the golden question I've asked you several times already, which you simply keep ignoring. For me, the easy answer is, you can't

Now for the sake of starting the week on a positive note, I think if you read through my earlier post you will see how I train 'for the fight' without actually fighting, and to be clear, I do not and have never viewed 'fighting' as 'competition'. So in many respects I agree that you can only test, your actual fighting ability through fighting, and competition tends to restrict how we train our system, in some cases to the total detriment of our core principles (my straight kick to the inside of the knee joint was one of my first examples here as something that I thought was against the rules of most freestyle comps)

So, what does happen to Wing Chun when we compete??

The Wing Chun I know of is lost when I see attempts at comps in the past and the clips I posted only highlight a few, but that just maybe because I do not want to see our system sacrificed to please people that really couldn't care less about our system...

[tc101]

Well yep! Definitely missed that post #49 so it seems we have missed a unique opportunity to hug and make up lol!

My question, which was actually aimed at the whole group here, was:

How do you test your Wing Chun without fighting? Answer me that...

And I asked that question specifically, and answered it myself in post #51 while chatting with tc101 as I think he/she understands a little more about what I am talking about here maybe...

Or maybe not lol. As I learned wing chun there are various aspects to the training and we test those aspects through performance of those aspects.

Now for the sake of starting the week on a positive note, I think if you read through my earlier post you will see how I train 'for the fight' without actually fighting

Here is I think the deal if you do in fighting what you do in sparring or to change it around do in sparring what you will do in fighting, use the same techniques and tactics and strategies and concepts, then as you get better at sparring you get better at fighting. Your sparring becomes the practice of your fighting.

, and to be clear, I do not and have never viewed 'fighting' as 'competition'. So in many respects I agree that you can only test, your actual fighting ability through fighting, and competition tends to restrict how we train our system, in some cases to the total detriment of our core principles (my straight kick to the inside of the knee joint was one of my first examples here as something that I thought was against the rules of most freestyle comps)

Your reason is the so called deadly technique argument, saying I cannot compete because I can't use my deadly technique. Honestly sport fighters ridicule this argument since it has been demonstrated time and time and time again to be false. Really does your whole art collapse if you cannot use one specific kick or if you cannot target the groin?

So, what does happen to Wing Chun when we compete??

Nothing. Wing chun stays the same. It is not wing chun that competes it is the individual who competes. They will perform regardless of their style at their own level.

The Wing Chun I know of is lost when I see attempts at comps in the past and the clips I posted only highlight a few, but that just maybe because I do not want to see our system sacrificed to please people that really couldn't care less about our system...

Poor levels of performance reflect inadequate training and preparation. It is not a reflection on the whole art.

[LoneTiger108]

Here is I think the deal if you do in fighting what you do in sparring or to change it around do in sparring what you will do in fighting, use the same techniques and tactics and strategies and concepts, then as you get better at sparring you get better at fighting. Your sparring becomes the practice of your fighting.

Actually I see what you are saying... I don't think you are understanding me at all lol! The whole reasoning behind what you are saying is flawed... sparring can not represent your fighting!

Sparring is sparring. Fighting is fighting. That's just my view.

Your reason is the so called deadly technique argument, saying I cannot compete because I can't use my deadly technique. Honestly sport fighters ridicule this argument since it has been demonstrated time and time and time again to be false. Really does your whole art collapse if you cannot use one specific kick or if you cannot target the groin?

No. Actually my argument is PRINCIPLE led, not technique led. Just as my teaching of Wing Chun is the same (as I believe it should be). And how has this simple concept been demonstrated to be false?? Who, in the MMA/Comp arena has kicked or stomped the inside of the knee without being disuqualified? Who has tried to gouge the eyes??

What I am saying is simple really. It isn't magic. It's logic.

Wing chun stays the same. It is not wing chun that competes it is the individual who competes. They will perform regardless of their style at their own level.

No. Again you are wrong imho. If it's called a Wing Chun Chisau Compettion, it is Wing Chun that is expected to be seen competing. Regardless of the individual, Wing Chun Chisau is expected. And I do not see that in many of the clips and comps I have seen. Once contacted is broken it tends to become a free-for-all, trading blows in a non-productive manner. Wing Chun was not designed to 'trade blows', it was designed to finish off adversaries quickly and effectively in the shortest possible time and least amount of effort. Jumping around for 3 min rounds is hardly doing that is it?

And yes. Whovever has the audience, and whoever is dominating the promotional marketing strategies does have a direct affect on how we are ALL viewed by others, the reflection of the art can be compromised. But this is just my view! I'm looking to see how and why others support comps... and specifically to see if there could be a way we compete that satisfies the more fussy practitioners out there like me lol!

No luck yet

[tc101]

Actually I see what you are saying... I don't think you are understanding me at all lol! The whole reasoning behind what you are saying is flawed... sparring can not represent your fighting!

Sparring is sparring. Fighting is fighting. That's just my view.

Yes, sparring and fighting are two different things. However I explained why sparring can be practice fighting. It works that way if you do in sparring what you will do in fighting. This is the whole premise behind sport fight training and why sport fighters get so good.

If you plan to do something else in fighting that you don't practice in sparring then you are trying to do something that you've never really practiced live.

No. Actually my argument is PRINCIPLE led, not technique led. Just as my teaching of Wing Chun is the same (as I believe it should be). And how has this simple concept been demonstrated to be false?? Who, in the MMA/Comp arena has kicked or stomped the inside of the knee without being disuqualified? Who has tried to gouge the eyes??

So your principle is to gouge the eyes and kick the knee? What do you do if accosted by some drunk? Are you going to poke out his eyes or try to break his leg? Any fighting art provides us with different tools, permits different levels of force and so forth to deal with various situations. If your thinking is I will only try to blind, kill or maim someone that tries to fight with me, then you are a psychopath and will end up in prison or dead.

Wing chun has various tools. How we choose and I want to emphasize choose to use them is up to us and our skills not dictated to us by the system or some so called principle. Do not be a slave to the system.

What I am saying is simple really. It isn't magic. It's logic.

That deadly technique argument has been refuted over and over and over.

No. Again you are wrong imho. If it's called a Wing Chun Chisau Compettion, it is Wing Chun that is expected to be seen competing. Regardless of the individual, Wing Chun Chisau is expected. And I do not see that in many of the clips and comps I have seen. Once contacted is broken it tends to become a free-for-all, trading blows in a non-productive manner. Wing Chun was not designed to 'trade blows', it was designed to finish off adversaries quickly and effectively in the shortest possible time and least amount of effort. Jumping around for 3 min rounds is hardly doing that is it?

Regardless of how you believe wing chun should be practiced or is designed for the reality is your opponent will be actively trying to stop you from finishing him quickly and effectively and will be trying to do the same to you. Boxers have a saying that everyone has a plan until they get hit. When this happens things get messy. That is simply how it works.

And yes. Whovever has the audience, and whoever is dominating the promotional marketing strategies does have a direct affect on how we are ALL viewed by others, the reflection of the art can be compromised. But this is just my view! I'm looking to see how and why others support comps... and specifically to see if there could be a way we compete that satisfies the more fussy practitioners out there like me lol!

No luck yet

Deciding to compete in organized competition is a personal choice. It might surprise you that the majority of people in bjj mma boxing mt and so on classes also do not compete. Only a small number do.

What I see is that it really is a personality issue. Some like competition and some don't. Those that like it rationalize why it is good, those who don't like it rationalize why it is bad.