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Thread: What if,

  1. #1

    What if,

    in the long, long ago...forms were originally more like a Wai Ku than a fundamental method of martial training?

    In Mongolian Bokh competitors perform a dance before they wrestle. Okinawa had folk dances with martial elements that predate Karate. Nak Muay perform their Wai Ku before a fight. It seems like most Asian martial arts have a dance element.

    So is it possible the origin of forms training may have been more of a ritual than we let on? Could the current popular thinking about this tradition be completely misconstrued?

    Just throwing it out there....
    Quote Originally Posted by YouKnowWho View Post
    This is 100% TCMA principle. It may be used in non-TCMA also. Since I did learn it from TCMA, I have to say it's TCMA principle.
    Quote Originally Posted by YouKnowWho View Post
    We should not use "TCMA is more than combat" as excuse for not "evolving".

    You can have Kung Fu in cooking, it really has nothing to do with fighting!

  2. #2
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    do u wanna know the traditional kung fu name for forms bro

    Honorary African American
    grandmaster instructor of Wombat Combat The Lost Art of Anal Destruction™®LLC .
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  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by bawang View Post
    do u wanna know the traditional kung fu name for forms bro
    You know i do.
    Quote Originally Posted by YouKnowWho View Post
    This is 100% TCMA principle. It may be used in non-TCMA also. Since I did learn it from TCMA, I have to say it's TCMA principle.
    Quote Originally Posted by YouKnowWho View Post
    We should not use "TCMA is more than combat" as excuse for not "evolving".

    You can have Kung Fu in cooking, it really has nothing to do with fighting!

  4. #4
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    forms is dance. the traditional chinese name for forms is dance.

    have i torn apart your reality yet bro

    Honorary African American
    grandmaster instructor of Wombat Combat The Lost Art of Anal Destruction™®LLC .
    Senior Business Director at TEAM ASSHAMMER consulting services ™®LLC

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by bawang View Post
    forms is dance. the traditional chinese name for forms is dance.

    have i torn apart your reality yet bro
    lol..I expected as much....

    What brought me to this was seeing Yi Long fight. He would do a traditional form before his kickboxing matches. It reminded me a lot of the Thai's Wai Ku.

    Made me think maybe this was the original intent....back when Kung Fu people fought.
    Quote Originally Posted by YouKnowWho View Post
    This is 100% TCMA principle. It may be used in non-TCMA also. Since I did learn it from TCMA, I have to say it's TCMA principle.
    Quote Originally Posted by YouKnowWho View Post
    We should not use "TCMA is more than combat" as excuse for not "evolving".

    You can have Kung Fu in cooking, it really has nothing to do with fighting!

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by bawang View Post
    have i torn apart your reality yet bro
    You shattered my illusions long ago....
    Quote Originally Posted by YouKnowWho View Post
    This is 100% TCMA principle. It may be used in non-TCMA also. Since I did learn it from TCMA, I have to say it's TCMA principle.
    Quote Originally Posted by YouKnowWho View Post
    We should not use "TCMA is more than combat" as excuse for not "evolving".

    You can have Kung Fu in cooking, it really has nothing to do with fighting!

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kellen Bassette View Post
    lol..I expected as much....

    What brought me to this was seeing Yi Long fight. He would do a traditional form before his kickboxing matches. It reminded me a lot of the Thai's Wai Ku.

    Made me think maybe this was the original intent....back when Kung Fu people fought.
    all forms of entertainment were banned in the ming army except forms. thats why forms exploded in the ming dynasty.
    Last edited by bawang; 05-30-2013 at 07:29 PM.

    Honorary African American
    grandmaster instructor of Wombat Combat The Lost Art of Anal Destruction™®LLC .
    Senior Business Director at TEAM ASSHAMMER consulting services ™®LLC

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by bawang View Post
    ALL forms of entertainment were banned in the ming army except forms.
    Do you know if there is any evidence to complex form training prior to the Ming? It seems like the 15th Century really kicked off the proliferation of taolu....
    Quote Originally Posted by YouKnowWho View Post
    This is 100% TCMA principle. It may be used in non-TCMA also. Since I did learn it from TCMA, I have to say it's TCMA principle.
    Quote Originally Posted by YouKnowWho View Post
    We should not use "TCMA is more than combat" as excuse for not "evolving".

    You can have Kung Fu in cooking, it really has nothing to do with fighting!

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kellen Bassette View Post
    Do you know if there is any evidence to complex form training prior to the Ming? It seems like the 15th Century really kicked off the proliferation of taolu....
    what do u mean by "complex"
    Last edited by bawang; 05-30-2013 at 07:47 PM.

    Honorary African American
    grandmaster instructor of Wombat Combat The Lost Art of Anal Destruction™®LLC .
    Senior Business Director at TEAM ASSHAMMER consulting services ™®LLC

  10. #10
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    Anybody can make up forms. If you are 70 years old with some reputation, you just made up a form last night, nobody will question the origon of your form. You can always say that you have learned that from from your father.

    The day that you have found out that you can make forms better than most of the TCMA forms, the day that you will lose faith in your TCMA forms. If you can add

    - right jab, left cross, right hook, left uppercut combo,
    - front kick, roundhouse kick, side kick combo,
    - front cut, leg lift, shin bite combo,
    - ...

    into the new form that you have just created, you have add a lot of value into whatever the style that you have trained.
    Last edited by YouKnowWho; 05-30-2013 at 07:40 PM.
    http://johnswang.com

    More opinion -> more argument
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  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by YouKnowWho View Post
    Anybody can make up forms.
    It seems like each generation a teacher creates a form, if not several, to add to his system...having one form for a school/style makes sense to me, for tradition, preservation of techniques, marking a system, ect...having 50 or 60 forms doesn't make much sense....
    Quote Originally Posted by YouKnowWho View Post
    This is 100% TCMA principle. It may be used in non-TCMA also. Since I did learn it from TCMA, I have to say it's TCMA principle.
    Quote Originally Posted by YouKnowWho View Post
    We should not use "TCMA is more than combat" as excuse for not "evolving".

    You can have Kung Fu in cooking, it really has nothing to do with fighting!

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by bawang View Post
    what do u mean by "complex"
    lengthy, complicated, intricate movements...I'm sure forms have always existed in the sense of linking a few moves together to practice as a drill...(like John mentioned,) but when did jab-cross-round kick turn into Da Hong Quan?
    Quote Originally Posted by YouKnowWho View Post
    This is 100% TCMA principle. It may be used in non-TCMA also. Since I did learn it from TCMA, I have to say it's TCMA principle.
    Quote Originally Posted by YouKnowWho View Post
    We should not use "TCMA is more than combat" as excuse for not "evolving".

    You can have Kung Fu in cooking, it really has nothing to do with fighting!

  13. #13
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    When you create a form, you have to ask yourself the following questiions:

    - Do I just re-arrange different moves from forms in my system?
    - Have I added anything new?
    - Will I create "burden" for the future generation (one more form to learn)?
    - ...
    http://johnswang.com

    More opinion -> more argument
    Less opinion -> less argument
    No opinion -> no argument

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by YouKnowWho View Post
    When you create a form, you have to ask yourself the following questiions:

    - Do I just re-arrange different moves from forms in my system?
    - Have I added anything new?
    - Will I create "burden" for the future generation (one more form to learn)?
    - ...
    My Go Ju Ryu Shihan created several basic kata. I never understood a need to have more than one basic kata. He also created several "bridging kata" combining techniques from a lower level kata with techniques of a higher kata. This also made no sense to me. You were just practicing a rearrangement of the same moves.

    In Shaolin there are hundreds of forms, but there is so much redundancy, it seems forms were just created for the sake of creating forms.

    I think there is an idea that everything you learned from your shifu must be passed on and then whatever you add gets passed on, along with some of the things you absorbed from other systems. In the end it is, as you say, a burden.

    To much time practicing the same thing in different sequences and not focusing on conditioning or developing fighting skill.
    Quote Originally Posted by YouKnowWho View Post
    This is 100% TCMA principle. It may be used in non-TCMA also. Since I did learn it from TCMA, I have to say it's TCMA principle.
    Quote Originally Posted by YouKnowWho View Post
    We should not use "TCMA is more than combat" as excuse for not "evolving".

    You can have Kung Fu in cooking, it really has nothing to do with fighting!

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kellen Bassette View Post
    lengthy, complicated, intricate movements...I'm sure forms have always existed in the sense of linking a few moves together to practice as a drill...(like John mentioned,) but when did jab-cross-round kick turn into Da Hong Quan?
    all forms of entertainment were banned in the ming army except forms. so forms became more complicated in the 1550s, since it became a major form of entertainment.

    folk stories also say in the 1700s there was another wave of flowery kung fu, but there is no written history to prove it.
    Last edited by bawang; 05-30-2013 at 08:43 PM.

    Honorary African American
    grandmaster instructor of Wombat Combat The Lost Art of Anal Destruction™®LLC .
    Senior Business Director at TEAM ASSHAMMER consulting services ™®LLC

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