What if,

[Jimbo]

I can agree with that. It's not TCMA itself, but how it is taught today, I think.

That's a very big generalization, assuming that we know how TCMA is taught in every school of every conceivable system/style, in every country. That's a rather broad umbrella.

There have been schools/practitioners (definitely since, and almost certainly before, the boxer rebellion) that emphasized the performance/artistic aspect and deemphasized the combative aspect, just as there have always been other schools that emphasized a combative approach. And many emphasize a balance of the two. This phenomenon isn't just a recent occurrence.

[Kymus]

That's a very big generalization, assuming that we know how TCMA is taught in every school of every conceivable system/style, in every country. That's a rather broad umbrella.

The 3 levels of training can be applied to any school, so can full-contact sparring. From there, each art can figure out what works for them and if they need to change/add/remove anything.

This Hung Gar School is doing something along those lines. I can't tell them that they should add or remove certain forms, but I can't see why they wouldn't benefit from the above mentioned and then consider whether they should or shouldn't change anything.

[Syn7]

Yes and No. There isn't anything wrong with TCMA, that's a bit of an overgeneralization. Some schools are good, some are bad, and there are aspects that don't fit into our perception of martial art. If a school doesn't progress through my paradigm of the three levels, then it doesn't fit my perception, but that doesn't mean it's bad. It's just not for me.

Depends on your priorities. If all you do is forms and you want to be a fighter, it's a shitty school FOR YOU. If you just wanna have fun, be healthy and do cool demos then it would be a great school.... FOR YOU. Know what I'm sayin? Of course it goes both ways... If all you wanna do is have fun and get some exercise and your teachers keep kicking your ass, not a good school..... FOR YOU.

You wanna learn how to put your hands on somebody, you gotta practice putting your hands on somebody.

If I want to be a great ditch digger, what is better: lifting weights and doing shovel motions

or

actually digging ditches?

[Syn7]

Also...


We can't ignore the money thing here. Performance theater has always been popular. Many CMA cats have made a living impressing people with solo demos. Others see that and think "COOOOOL, I wanna do that!" and on it goes from there.

[Kellen Bassette]

I like forms. I also like dancing and doing gymnastics. While I do believe that being able to do these things gives me an advantage in ANY physical activity, I mean compared to where I myself would be w/o those skills, but never at any point did I delude myself into thinking that this was the epitome of training. I think the biggest issue here is priorities. As priorities change we change our methods. Simple... no?

This is my line of thinking...I like forms as well and have defended them as having value to a fighter many times in this forum. I think they are beneficial, much in the way gymnastics, yoga, track, ect are beneficial to a fighter, but probably a little more so.

My point is...if you go to Thailand and train Muay Thai, you work on your fighting skills. When your all done with your pads, bags, sparring, clinch, drills ect...then you practice your Wai Ku. It seems to me that in a lot of TCMA; and TMA in general, the majority of the curriculum is built around the forms; and all that other stuff is supplementary. The ranking system in most TMA schools is built around form memorization, hence most training seems to be geared to this end.

So...I dislike the idea of people practicing mainly this one aspect, which was probably a much, much smaller part of training in ancient times and defending their avoidance of developing real martial skill as "traditional."

To me, this is not "traditional" at all.

[Kellen Bassette]

no! .......

That's a very persuasive argument you have there....

[Kellen Bassette]

1) Bawang has a secret source that he will never tell anyone because his existence is dependant on making kong foo kids cry. Actually, I think Bawang just wants to make everyone cry.. Either out of rage, frustration, or laughter.

I know he likes the white wimmins with the yellow hairs. Maybe we can bribe him...

[hskwarrior]

That's a very persuasive argument you have there....

sumtimes its just THAT simple. LOL

[Kellen Bassette]

Fair enough....

[bawang]

When are you going to write a serious paper and quote all your sources?

You come up with a lot of stuff that we don't see elsewhere on English sites...if you got the pertinent documents arranged cohesively, I think that would be a pretty big service to Kung Fu in the English speaking world.

i will never reveal the secret of the wulin to the hairy ones.

[Kellen Bassette]

i will never reveal the secret of the wulin to the hairy ones.

Then the way of the wombat shall be lost.

[SavvySavage]

go to an International Kuoshu Tournament. I believe they still have them. It's been a long while so I don't know what they're like today, but it used to be expected that you do an open hand form, weapon form, and fight full contact. And to much the surprise of the greater online modern kung fu community, you actually do see some "style" in the free fighting.

I've been to some Kuo shu matches. I didnt notice any discernible style. It looked like "kickboxing".

[Kymus]

It seems to me that in a lot of TCMA; and TMA in general, the majority of the curriculum is built around the forms; and all that other stuff is supplementary. The ranking system in most TMA schools is built around form memorization, hence most training seems to be geared to this end.

Agree 100%

I think there's too much imbalance. Lots of forms and memorization, but little in the way of application.

[YouKnowWho]

I think there's too much imbalance. Lots of forms and memorization, but little in the way of application.

It depends on the teacher. You don't have to teach forms as the way you have taught. You can teach application only. You can always avoid this mistake in your generation. Of course you don't have to tell your teacher, "Sorry that I don't teach the forms that you have taught me."

What will a praying mantis teacher teach if he doesn't teach form? He will become a Sanda teacher. What will a WC teacher teach if he doesn't teach form? He will also become a Sanda teacher. Sometime when people said, "This is not WC, ..." To me, as long as this is "combat", that's all it matters. As long as your fist can land on your opponent's face, why do you care about anything else?

[Kymus]

Certainly not everyone focuses just on forms and memorization, but I think that more time should be spent with drilling, 3 levels of practice, and sparring.

Forms provide a way for a student to learn and memorize a variety of techniques; many times the forms themselves help the student practice the application (albeit without an opponent, but you get the idea).

Indeed one can stop the cycle; take what their teacher did and just throw it out there in a different way.

Ever so slowly, I think I'm starting to see more people in the TCMA community do this.