Shaolin Boxing before 1780

[Scott R. Brown]

but the beauty of it all is that he is so wise that he knows this and still lets me kick it. thats how wise he really is!

My sifu, called The Ancient One taught us,

"The only one wiser than the wise is a wiseacre!"

He was a very wise-acre!

[Lucas]

ya he always beats me at street fighter too. hes really good with ryu

[Sima Rong]

@Matthew

Thanks for outlining the arguments with such clarity and logic.

[bawang]

You have a short memory. We have had this discussion before.

I explained the deeply embedded culture in Song mountian and the many village styles. I went to this specific village as I said above. I have actually learned these forms. I made copies of the old poems written about them.

There is no point in discussion with you. I already did it before, I made my points clear, you simply insulted me. It was not a profitable argument, then you deleted the entire thread.

david ross has a point.

the xiaohongquan in the neighboring villages is just regular xiaohongquan. it looks just like typical hongquan from every other province. so what makes it "shaolin"?

the main weapon of shaolin monks in 1928 was the german mauser rifle. so what is "traditional shaolin"?

[RenDaHai]

david ross isn't saying the kung fu itself isn't legit, hes saying there no such thing as shaolin style.

Where is the edge of a thing? Under scrutiny all things lose their outline, even the fundamental particles of nature. Quite so. If I am to analyse the technique across all styles of Kung Fu, from Wudang to Shaolin to E'Mei to Wutai, I will find the vast majority of the techniques identical. Abstract from form to application and many MA of the world have largely identical techniques.

There is a lot of overlap.

And sometimes it is useful to think in this way.

But sometimes we have to impose a border to help us contemplate. In this case, the border is imposed by a map of Song Mountain and the Kung Fu within.

[Lucas]

but my xiaohongquan is special

[bawang]

Where is the edge of a thing? Under scrutiny all things lose their outline, even the fundamental particles of nature. Quite so. If I am to analyse the technique across all styles of Kung Fu, from Wudang to Shaolin to E'Mei to Wutai, I will find the vast majority of the techniques identical. Abstract from form to application and many MA of the world have largely identical techniques.

There is a lot of overlap.

And sometimes it is useful to think in this way.

But sometimes we have to impose a border to help us contemplate. In this case, the border is imposed by a map of Song Mountain and the Kung Fu within.

- the neighboring village train generic style hongquan and changquan.

-shaolin documents admit to learning generic long fist from outside during 1500s

- shaolin people after 1986 were known to travel around china "buying" forms and manuals.

- modern songshan shaolin system is missing the fundamental beginner forms: four gates, 8 hits, 13, 36, etc.

-traditional jibengong missing (5 elements) instead taught using modern wushu methods (mabu, gongbu, etc)

- staff forms from the well known 500 year old shaolin staff manual is nowhere found in shaolin temple.

-famous treasured staff technique from general yu not found

- shaolin musket tradition missing

-archery tradition missing

-cavalry tradition missing

- wagon (siege) tradition missing

- formation and squad tactics tradition missing

-traditional sparring equipment missing

-republic era modernization tradition missing (bolt action rifles)

[wenshu]

In this case I have better qualifications than just about anyone else who speaks native English. I spent 7 years in Song Shan and I have seen hundreds of its forms. I know many.

These are really the only methods we can use to analyse it. Short of carbon dating the QuanPu, but thats not gonna happen anytime soon. Much of history relies on informed conjecture, and in this case, I am informed.

You can't read Chinese; modern, literary, classical or otherwise. If anything that is the first qualification for the careful study of martial arts history. Being a martial arts student is not by any measure a qualification for historical investigation. It only belies your extreme bias and tendency towards myth and folklore.

But the idea is that because it is preserved in the village, it would have changed less over the last 500 years than the version at Shaolin Temple. Why? Because Shaolin had people who spent all their time practicing where as in the village it is just a hobby. The monks would have been more confident to modify the techniques than the farmers.

The fact that you don't recognize this for the wildly speculative supposition that it is is alarming.

[RenDaHai]

The fact that you don't recognize this for the wildly speculative supposition that it is is alarming.

It is a reasonable supposition. Shaolin temple forms are in a constant state of flux, the temple being the epicentre of all the surrounding village styles. They were always under influence also from new people from other parts of China.

The Village on the other hand is isolated. People don't tend to move to these places, they progress on their own.

The phenomenon of tradition surviving in isolated villages longer than in busy areas is not a wild idea.

I speak Chinese, so If I have a dictionary I can read it slowly. I just can't read it in realtime. But I have people who can read to me and I often talk to people, the actual people in the actual place. This is more valuable than you give it credit for.

[lkfmdc]

Am I the only one who finds it funny that the entire argument here is supposition?

well, seems like wenshu is geting it...

but the rest?

[lkfmdc]

I have a dictionary

yup, he just can't see how funny the whole thing is....

[Lucas]

Look guys, i just need all of you to chill out, and then admit that my shaolin is special.

Thx

[lkfmdc]

Look guys, i just need all of you to chill out, and then admit that my shaolin is special.

Thx

special, as in special ed...

[Lucas]

Yes, i am glad you can tell that my kungfu education has i deed been special!

[RenDaHai]

- the neighboring village train generic style hongquan and changquan.

Hong Quan technique is relatively Generic, I'll give you that. But as is all northern Chinese technique. Shaolins Hong quan form construction on the other hand is excellent and unique. Shaolins theory and principles are unique. Song shan has unique philosophies. What of the other Song shan styles? Luo han, Jin gang, Shi san zhua, Po si men, Pao Chui, Tong Bei, Qi xing, Zhao yang, LiuHe, Xin yi Ba, etc. etc. These are very different to their outside Song shan versions, some unique to Songshan.

In comparison to any other place in China, Song Shan has a remarkable amount of its Kung fu.