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[bogdan.sifu]

I am assuming that you have posted this video to market your wing chun product. If this is the case then it may perhaps impress complete beginners but since what you show can be performed by most advanced beginners in any wing chun class I do not think it will impress anyone who already practices wing chun.

Please send a video reply of your students/colleagues. Thank you!

[tc101]

Our thinking couldn't be more different. I don't see a point in continuing to answer you or shall we engage in a forum lovers tiff again? lol

Yes yes God forbid people with different perspectives exchange their views.

So you think punching with a vertical fist, with the elbow inside the body using one arm to do two actions is natural do you? You don't need to train then IMO.

Just because an action is natural does not mean we do not have to practice that action to refine it and get better at it.

Going back to my example of the two arms in contact if the arm on top tries to punch while checking the arm beneath then keeping the elbow down and in which makes a vertical fist is natural. This is why chi sau as I said forces you to use proper wing chun actions to be successful.

There is no sticky or arm contact in my system (albeit a fraction of a second) so I cannot answer you.

I bet you have chi sau in your system so you have a lot of practice with arm contact. It is just an extension to move from what works for more prolonged to shorter lengths of contact. What works for contact works for shorter contact.

So we learn two different systems then. No problem is it?

I do not think we have learned two different systems both are wing chun.

[tc101]

Please send a video reply of your students/colleagues. Thank you!

You posted your video and asked for comments so I commented. You can look on YouTube and find lots and lots of fast hand videos if this is what you want.

[tc101]

I want to see one with you!

There are already too too too many videos of wing chun on YouTube and I do not want to contribute to that landfill. I offered my requested comment and directed you to the many already in existence videos that show what I told you and if that won't convince you one more video by me certainly will not.

[Graham H]

Yes yes God forbid people with different perspectives exchange their views.

Different perspectives are often born from lack of knowledge and misinterpretation. Two factors that are rife in Wing Chun

Just because an action is natural does not mean we do not have to practice that action to refine it and get better at it.

Whatever

Going back to my example of the two arms in contact if the arm on top tries to punch while checking the arm beneath then keeping the elbow down and in which makes a vertical fist is natural. This is why chi sau as I said forces you to use proper wing chun actions to be successful.

Two arms in contact referring to what exactly? A training drill? Fighting? The Waltz?

What you are referring to is just a very basic drill that teaches us to keep the elbow in and down so that we don't bring it out and up in sparring. It's got nothing to do with sticking mon frere!

I bet you have chi sau in your system so you have a lot of practice with arm contact.

Yes purely to develop the correct behavior of the punch and to improve co-ordination. It also allows us to exchange force with our training partner so we can improve our structure. Nothing to do with sticky!

It is just an extension to move from what works for more prolonged to shorter lengths of contact. What works for contact works for shorter contact.

If you are finding that you are able to have prolonged contact in sparring then you need to find somebody that can fight properly. For me it's not possible.

I do not think we have learned two different systems both are wing chun.

I disagree. Wing Chun can mean anything these days as long as it contains some like for like names of forms and drills. Inside the system things could not be more different. FACT!

[Graham H]

There are already too too too many videos of wing chun on YouTube and I do not want to contribute to that landfill. .

LMAO......sounds familiar.

[tc101]

Different perspectives are often born from lack of knowledge and misinterpretation. Two factors that are rife in Wing Chun

That is not necessarily the case though.

Whatever

Can you not even agree that even natural actions or movement get refined and better through practice?

Two arms in contact referring to what exactly? A training drill? Fighting? The Waltz?

Seriously do you not see what I am saying? You even talked about momentary contact in application. I am saying that contact is contact whether it is momentary as in your application or for longer periods like when doing chi sau. Chi sau because we are in prolonged contact makes it easier to see and correct our actions for when in momentary contact too.

What you are referring to is just a very basic drill that teaches us to keep the elbow in and down so that we don't bring it out and up in sparring. It's got nothing to do with sticking mon frere!

Why do you want to keep the elbow down and in when you spar? The answer is not because they told me so right? Chi sau shows you the answer and let's you practice doing it.

Yes purely to develop the correct behavior of the punch and to improve co-ordination. It also allows us to exchange force with our training partner so we can improve our structure. Nothing to do with sticky!

You seem obsessed with sticky. This is not what I am talking about. Why do we need to exchange force with our partner or improve our structure? Why do we do this through a contact drill? Forget the sticky.

If you are finding that you are able to have prolonged contact in sparring then you need to find somebody that can fight properly. For me it's not possible.

Where did I suggest this?

I disagree. Wing Chun can mean anything these days as long as it contains some like for like names of forms and drills. Inside the system things could not be more different. FACT!

Yet it is all wing chun. We do not need to agree about how to box to both practice boxing.

[Graham H]

That is not necessarily the case though.

IYO

Can you not even agree that even natural actions or movement get refined and better through practice?

Of course.

Seriously do you not see what I am saying? You even talked about momentary contact in application. I am saying that contact is contact whether it is momentary as in your application or for longer periods like when doing chi sau. Chi sau because we are in prolonged contact makes it easier to see and correct our actions for when in momentary contact too.

Well I don't agree with you! Prolonged contact can lead you up some funny garden paths mate! Look at the WT system.

The answer is not because they told me so right?

Who are they?

You seem obsessed with sticky.

Not obsessed its just after so many years investigating a trying out I think it is the main reason why a lot Ving Tsun is joke.

Why do we need to exchange force with our partner or improve our structure? Why do we do this through a contact drill? Forget the sticky.

Are you asking me why?

Yet it is all wing chun. We do not need to agree about how to box to both practice boxing.

Ok so we both practice Wing Chun.............it's just mine is completely different to what you practice!

[tc101]

Graham_H you seem to see things in terms of black and white. Either you agree with Bayers ideas and are right or you don't and then you are wrong. The reality I think is much more complex and shaded. Often there is no one right way but several possible ways to lok at things, that can depend on your level, your experience, how open minded you are and so on. I do not see a great deal of difference in opinion between us other than I look at things a bit broader than you.

One of my training partners was a national level fencer and he gave me something to think about once that had an impact on me. What he told me is that when you start fencing, you begin with foil and everything is taught and practiced in blade to blade contact everything from attacks to defenses and so on extend from there. They begin in contact since the principle attack is the straight thrust does this sound familiar? and so your thrust will often encounter the opponent's blade. The practice involves extended contact almost sticky foil with the thrust parries counter thrusts counter parries and so on all taking place in sticky foil or extended contact. This is because the contact forces you to do certain things like keep your point up and maintain the centerline, be tight with your parries take advantage of his lapses in proper form and so forth otherwise you will receive continual touches. Does all this sound familiar?

Now in the olden days they actually fought like this with extended foil to foil contact whereas today most bouts involve mostly noncontact fencing. Yet they still learn and practice this way since the habits of movement you learn from extended contact apply equally to momentary contact and it is easier to teach beginners with the extended contact because they have more time to process things.

Can you fight with sticky foil? Yes they used to all the time but that either requires that both sides are trying to maintain that connection or that you use various tactics to try to trick the opponent into it.

I bring this up since it had an effect on how I see chi sau. I now see it as a drill to enforce through the extended contact or stickiness various skills like with the blade in fencing and those skills are useful in both contact and noncontact since noncontact can at almost anytime change into a contact situation. You do not need to try to stick for this momentary contact to arise. But does this mean that you cannot stick in fighting? No it doesn't just that like with the blade requires the skills to do it and even then only in certain situation.

So if you see fighting or fencing as not involving stickyness that is fine do without it. If you see stickyness as also a tactic that might be ueful in certain circumstances and can pull it off that is fine too.

I know you will probably not even think about this because it does not conform to your Bayer view of wing chun but who knows maybe in time you will see that this view may hold some merit.

[bogdan.sifu]

I don't fancy your chances with that way of moving but I admire your confidence!

Maybe you can become my Teacher.

You are right! I am confident.

But, I didn't mean it that way. I was referring to sharing knowledge.

No need to be so defensive.

[PalmStriker]

thank you it is very nice dear

LOL ! funny.

[PalmStriker]

Bogdan , are you Serbian ? You have Serbian name ...

Like the music , don't forget, Tesla was also Serbian.